Newbie Hello and Question

[TOEZ3]

Hi everyone

I've been looking for a cool delta design homebuilt for a long time now and I think I've finally found it in the delta wolf.

My first question (many to come) is has anyone built one using aluminum or other light weight materials ?

I currently ride a EZ3 and am looking to build something lighter and faster.

[theDude]

I'm no expert but I'm sure one of them will be along shortly. You could certainly build any of the AZ bikes from aluminum but it would require more advanced welding techniques. About the only good way to weld it is using a TIG welder which is a bit more difficult to use than other types. If you are not familiar with TIG I suggest calling around to a few of your local welding supply stores to see of they know anybody who teaches it. It was quite a shift for me to go from riding aluminum and carbon-fiber bikes to steel. They are definitely heavier but wow are they sturdy. I had a chance to ride a tadpole trike at the LBS the other day and there was a LOT of flex that translated to some steering slop. Comparatively, my StreetFox feels rock solid. Even when really cranking on the pedal I hardly notice any frame flex.

[trikeman]

There was one member on the old forum (whose name escapes me at the moment) that built 2 DWs out of aluminum. If you click on the link to the old forum and do a search for aluminum in the delta wolf forum, I am pretty sure it will come up.

[Odd Man Out]

That was me -- the name was "Laus Deo" on the old forum. Now it is "Odd Man Out". I am up to 6 Delta Wolves out of aluminum. Search my posts for more info on AL. I know building with AL is poo - poohed here (hence my new name...) but I love it. After you search the posts, I will be more than happy to answer any other Q's you may have.

Odd Man Out

[AtomicZombie]

Aluminum is great if you have the skills. It's good to know that your machines are working out!

Brad

[SirJoey]

I love your signature, Odd Man. It could stand a darker color, though.
It's almost invisible. Or maybe you were going for subtle? :)

http://img384.imageshack.us/img384/7131/sirjoeysigmedij1.gif

[back2life]

I am in the planning stages of my first build but i am real sure you will find plenty of help here at AZ.

I will also let you know that odd man out is a very nice and personable guy. I have chatted with him and hes not really that odd but of course he is a zombie krew member

[TheKid]

Which brings up the question, what method are you using, and what about pre and post heat treatment?

[TOEZ3]

I'm just in info gathering stages right now


trying to learn as much as I can before I attempt my first build.

As far as the frame goes, I was thinking of having someone who knows much more than me to build it for me.....the rest is pretty much bolt on stuff.

[trikeman]

If I could build a frame out of aluminum with my current welding setup I probably would. Its a way cool material to work with. That said, the last time we had a long discussion on the forum about this, it seemed that the difference in weight between a steel framed DW and an aluminum one was about 4 pounds. That is 4 pounds on a 50+ pound bike. In the other thread where this is being discussed, you said you wanted someting MUCH lighter than your current EZ3. I am not sure 4 pounds will satisfy that criteria. I believe the last Cattrike I looked at weighs in at just over 30 pounds - now that is much lighter, except on the wallet.

A much easier place to look for speed is in the aerodynamics. At 20 mph, the resistance due to the air is about 5 times the mechanical resistance of the bearings, chain etc, at least on a wedgie. At 25 mph, air resistance is about 6 times the mechanical friction. Mechanical friction and losses are fairly proportional to weight, given the same components.

Just looking at the pictures of the EZ3, I would say you will automatically gain some aerodynamic advantage, since you will be sitting much lower between the back wheels with your legs out in front of you. How much extra speed that will give you, I can't say.

Money spent on a fairing (full or partial) would probably go a lot farther than money spent on exotic frame materials, if speed is your goal. Of course, you could do both.

[theDude]

Or you could get real crazy and try your hand at molding carbon fiber :). I make small CF parts for high performance radio control airplanes but I don't know if I would trust my skills enough to put my own skin on the line. Who knows, maybe one of these days I'll find a stack of cash and get motivated enough to work with big composite pieces.

[TOEZ3]

The Cattrikes are cool but I've kinda become accustomed to the Delta design riding my EZ3 for 5 years now. A 30lb Delta would be cool.

Maybe I'll try the carbon fiber....I just need to find more $$$$$$

[back2life]

While I am at the stage were I am getting together the supplies, tools, and skills to buiild my bike. Its the LodeRunner. I plan to use very frequebtly and I am not out for speed just from point a to point b and safely. I am not even to the point of cutting out the need piping I am just having a total blast and meeting like minding and just a weird people as I am.

It seems evryone here at AZ is thre to help you look at the response you have gotten already. I have built another so called bike made out of pvc piping it said it would hold 2 people they only weighed 85 pounds to gether because when I put my 195 on it it sagged and within a block broke in half. That was 160 in material and 1 1/2 weeks of work.

The bikes are not modling stars but they will last you for a life time and just think at every thing youll learn and the people you meet. to me those two things outweight the square tubing used.

[Odd Man Out]

I love your signature, Odd Man. It could stand a darker color, though.
It's almost invisible. Or maybe you were going for subtle? :)

http://img384.imageshack.us/img384/7131/sirjoeysigmedij1.gif

Yep, subtlety is me... I figure it might rub some the wrong way and it is not up to me to spring any upcoming surprises so to speak.

[Odd Man Out]

Which brings up the question, what method are you using, and what about pre and post heat treatment?

I am going to be presumptous and think that the question is to me so...
"method"??? I TIG weld everything.

I use 6061T6 Aluminum so it has already been pre heat treated (T6). I get the frames post heat treated back to a T5 to 6 condition. Costs a bit but it is worth it for safety's sake.

Odd Man Out

[Odd Man Out]

Papa

I get the frames heat treated at a place on Columbia Blvd in Portland Oregon. BTW they do good work.

I work with AL because I can manipulate it better than steel and I get joy in doing so.

True, AL is more expensive than steel, I get a six foot length of 1.5 square x .125 AL for $21.56. Here is the link for you:
http://www.discountsteel.com/index.cfm/go/main.itemDisplay/itemID/92.htm (http://www.discountsteel.com/index.cfm/go/main.itemDisplay/itemID/92.htm)

I looked closer at the above link -- it is for 6063 and not 6061 -- mea culpa

I liberally apply additional gussets to the AL DW frames.

Some people are almost fearful of working with AL. I understand... but why be a hater?


if we don't try new things, we will never see outside of our ruts...

[Odd Man Out]

Howdy Papa

Seems like you are pressing for answers that the general population could care less to know..Why is that???

Oh well, they stick the materiels in a LARGE oven and heat them at 375 to 425 degrees for 13 hours. I do not have them quenched in the glycol bath since 1. the frames are too big to fit and 2. It would really be super expensive. Since the frames are not dipped in glycol, the place can not guarantee that will go back to T6 condition. They say that the temper will reach 80-85 percent of T6. For the price (35 cents a pound -- that is good enough for me). Hope this helps.

On a side note. It seems like you are trying to bust my chops for some reason. I understand that you are quite knowledgeable and have the need to express yourself. I respect that. I have no dog in the fight for or against AL. Please don't see me as your Lex Luther. I am here in the forum to give and receive knowledge without an agenda as is hopefully everyone else. Have a great day.

Odd Man Out

[TOEZ3]

I'm impressed on the responses I've been getting in this forum.....FANTASTIC

I've learned a lot in only 2 days....thanks guys

[TheKid]

And on that last note Papa, what is your opinion of braising aluminum for lightweight racks and other accessories that aren't under the stress of weight and movement?

[Locutus]

How about using a truss system for structural support. I have in mind the TourMaster LWB for this. Note that most of the frame structure for the TourMaster consists of two parallel round tubes. I've seen building construction metal floor and roof trusses that essentially consist of two parallel flat bars with a solid rod zigzagging back and forth between the two bars, forming a series of triangles. One can imagine adapting something similar for a bike such as the TourMaster LWB. I don't know if there are any stock trusses with the proper weight and size, or in the desired material such as 6061 T6 aluminum, but I'm sure some of the AZ Krew members are capable of making such a truss from scratch.

A big advantage of using a truss system is weight and materials savings. smaller diameter tubing can be used and you'd gain significant strength and stiffness over the use of a larger mono beam system.

A variety of materials could be used: Flat bar and rod. Round tube or square tube. Larger stock for the stringers and smaller for the web. Lots of room for creativity. You'd probably want to utilize some kind of engineering resource to find the best balance of material size, truss height and strength.

[gbbwolf]

Hi everyone

I've been looking for a cool delta design homebuilt for a long time now and I think I've finally found it in the delta wolf.

My first question (many to come) is has anyone built one using aluminum or other light weight materials ?

I currently ride a EZ3 and am looking to build something lighter and faster.

Omg anything will be faster than an EZ3.
One of my mom's freinds brought me a ez3 to ride 20 inch rear wheels 16 inch front I think.

I talked about the twitchy steering and crappy ride.
To think when I first thought of buying a trike I looked at that unit.
So glad I built my deltawolf instead.
I am sorry but that trike should be outlawed or even recalled, the steering was pitiful.
I rode it for half a block and it was all over the road.
I would prefer to ride an upwrong instead.

My Opinion= Chop up the ez3 and use it for parts to build a wolf and other projects.

Nelson

[trikeman]

Now, now GB. I think it was designed for old people who think they have to go slow. You know like our parents generation. It probably works fine for them.

[gbbwolf]

Now, now GB. I think it was designed for old people who think they have to go slow. You know like our parents generation. It probably works fine for them.

Only 1 problem with that is old people have enough problems, keeping their hands from twitching.
1 inch of twitch and they will be in middle of the road getting run over.
If anyone rides one of these please stick to slow meandering bike paths, that don't have many people walking on them, or stop as someone approaches if you move the steering 1 inch it will move a foot in 2 seconds.

As far as speed goes a single speed bmx bike is faster than this POS.

IMAO
Nelson

[Locutus]

Papa, all well said and true, no doubt. But since it's our own (free) labor involved, if someone wants to try a truss system, I say "go for it."

Here's an idea that I think would address the torsional stresses: Build a three-stringer triangular truss. not only would the webbing material create a series of triangles, there would be three such webs running the length of the three stringers, and a cross section would also be a triangle. I don't know how to illustrate this concept in the forum, so hopefully this description is adequate for you to picture it in your mind.

Obviously, the monotube frame would be the simplest, but how cool the 3D truss system described above would be!

[TheKid]

One reason trusses (Both wood and metal) are used is for efficiency. Before trusses were produced offsite, they were produced onsite, which was labor intensive. For the last 30-40 years, trusses have been massed produced, contracted for specific jobs. So while the foundations for buildings are being escavated, trusses and other modular structures are being produced, greatly reducing the time it takes to erect a building one step at a time. The traditional diamond bicycle frame is a truss, as are the frames of many recumbents.
If you want to build a truss for a main frame from flat bar or round bar, think of the weight. By the time you add enough bridging to equal the strength of a tube, you will have exceeded the weight of the tube significantly.

[trikeman]

Papa, all well said and true, no doubt. But since it's our own (free) labor involved, if someone wants to try a truss system, I say "go for it."

Here's an idea that I think would address the torsional stresses: Build a three-stringer triangular truss. not only would the webbing material create a series of triangles, there would be three such webs running the length of the three stringers, and a cross section would also be a triangle. I don't know how to illustrate this concept in the forum, so hopefully this description is adequate for you to picture it in your mind.

Obviously, the monotube frame would be the simplest, but how cool the 3D truss system described above would be!

Hundreds of thousands of homebuilt aircraft are built with the truss system from cromo tubes. As papa has said, however, they just about have to be TIG or oxy-acetylene welded.

[Locutus]

Papa:
Sort of on the stringers, but note that theres no triangular web filling the space between them. I'll google to see if I can find an example.

[Locutus]

Here we go:

http://www.starlight-online.com/trussing.htm

Scroll down and view the middle picture (triangle) between I-beam and square.

[John Lewis]

Look at this for home made truss frame bike.
http://en.openbike.org/wiki/Bird_Cage
http://dirkb.dnsalias.net/pythonserge.html
http://www.sergeprinz.be/python.html

John Lewis

[trikeman]

That bike looks cool, but I am not sure what the advantage of it is over something simpler. It was TIG welded, and still weighs 16 kilograms, which is 35 pounds. That is pretty heavy for a 2 wheeler. 25 Hz's Python clone on the fleettrike site is built from simple square steel tubing and only weighs 28 pounds.

[jimFPU]

Cool seat design though..

[savarin]

Just a site to show that being unconventional can sometimes work.
Check out how he made the ultra light truss tubes for the scope.
It would make an interesting design in say carbon fibre. (for a bike)
Dont know if I would like to do the work though.
http://www.geocities.com/telescopiman/ultralight.html

[TOEZ3]

Have you ever used epoxy to join your Aluminum frames ?

Since I'm no welder, I'm thinking this may be a good way to join the frame without the need for re-tempering.

Thoughts ?

[TheKid]

From what I've been reading, some of the more expensive tadpoles are being assembled with epoxy. The tubes are epoxied into lugs, similar to PVC pipe assembly

[TOEZ3]

From what I've been reading, some of the more expensive tadpoles are being assembled with epoxy. The tubes are epoxied into lugs, similar to PVC pipe assembly

Gluing the frame together would make things a whole lot easier. Not to mention not having to worry about heat treating it after welding.

[Locutus]

Has anyone looked into using 1" copper plumbing pipe for frame material and using standard fittings and solder to "sweat" the pipes together into a bike frame, then brazing the bike hardware onto it? Obviously, 1" tubing wouldn't work for a monoframe, but perhaps it would be suitable for something like the TourMaster or WildKat?

[trikeman]

Has anyone looked into using 1" copper plumbing pipe for frame material and using standard fittings and solder to "sweat" the pipes together into a bike frame, then brazing the bike hardware onto it? Obviously, 1" tubing wouldn't work for a monoframe, but perhaps it would be suitable for something like the TourMaster or WildKat?

Have you priced copper lately?

[TOEZ3]

A polished copper bike would look awesome but carbon fiber would probably be cheaper

I think I'm going with Aluminum

[AtomicZombie]

I was thinking about a copper chopper actually. It would be only for show, but would be radical. Other than for show, it's only good for plumbing!

Brad

[TheKid]

We used to use scrap copper from plumbing jobs to make decorative mounts for outdoor lights. A lot of people like the green patina when it oxidizes, but some of us like it nice and shiny, so a few coats of clear primer follwed by 5 or more coats of clear lacquer did the trick. What's nice about using copper is that you could use 50-50 or 60-40 solder that's still available for stained glass work. It's a lot cheaper than the lead free stuff.
By oversoldering to the point that it drips all over the place, you could get some interesting designs. In high school I spent half a day at a trade school. Our plumbing teacher gave a failing mark for any joint that had any excess solder. Near the end of the year, the teacher was going to be gone for an hour. We all got together and made a huge compilation of copper tubing with solder dripping all over it, as a gift for the teacher to remember us by. When he arrived, he laughed, and said he was going to call it September Morn, and bring it to Greenwich Village to sell at an art gallery.

[Odd Man Out]

Have you ever used epoxy to join your Aluminum frames ?

Since I'm no welder, I'm thinking this may be a good way to join the frame without the need for re-tempering.

Thoughts ?

No, I have not tried epoxy. I always TIG things up -- I enjoy melting metal:)

Odd man out