WANTED: Delta Wolf Carbon Fiber Frame

[TOEZ3]

I'd like to build my own light weight Delta trike but have no tools or skills to construct a frame. Once I have a good frame, I think I can handle the bolt on stuff.

If anyone has used carbon fiber to build a bicycle frame, please pm me

[trikeman]

Toez - I have never really investigated the properties of carbon fiber, but building it in that material will probably take a certain amount of redesign. Brad has spent a lot of years building and testing steel frame bicycles to arrive at his designs. I think a certain amount of re-design and perhaps testing is advisable for a carbon model.

If I were re-designing the DeltaWolf in carbon fiber, I would probably do it with round tubes, just because I like the look better. Of particular concern would be all the areas of fitment where you join the carbon to another part, such as the bearings, or head tubes. You have to make sure the new design isn't going to crack and can handle the vibration and fatigue.

Have you looked at some of the proven carbon fibre designs on the net, such as rqRiley's work at:

http://www.rqriley.com/xr2.htm

[TOEZ3]

The Ground Hugger XR2 looks cool but I need a trike, I can't find any delta recumbent trikes in carbon fiber

[TOEZ3]

A steel brick trike I already have (my EZ3). For my next trike I would really like something radical and lite.

I like the Delta Wolf design but it makes no sense to me to build another steel or even a aluminum version of what I already have.

[SirJoey]

That reminds me of a sign I saw one time at a repair shop.

It said:

We do 3 kinds of work here: FAST, GOOD, & CHEAP.
You may choose any 2.

If it's FAST & GOOD, it will not be CHEAP.
If it's GOOD & CHEAP, it will not be FAST.
If it's CHEAP & FAST, it will not be GOOD.

:D

http://img384.imageshack.us/img384/7131/sirjoeysigmedij1.gif

[TOEZ3]

If it's FAST & GOOD, it will not be CHEAP.
If it's GOOD & CHEAP, it will not be FAST.
If it's CHEAP & FAST, it will not be GOOD.




that is so true

[TOEZ3]

Choose any 2:

Lightweight - Minimum cost - High strength

Once the basic design has evolved, it becomes increasingly difficult to trim weight without sacrificing strength - and if or when you do succeed, you'll see that you've balloned the original cost. One of the most efficient delta trike designs on the market, is a Hase Kettwiesel (http://www.hasebikes.com/59-1-kettwiesel-flash.html) - which weighs about 35 pounds and costs over $3500.

I'm sure I could build a light weight Delta Wolf for MUCH less

[gbbwolf]

Why so worried about weight.
I rode the ez3 it has 20 inch wheels 16 in front I beleive.

Speed is limited by the 20 inch wheel.
Handling is the biggest problem with the ez3.

It is all over the road, I would be more afraid of the ez3 going any faster,
It in my opinion should be reserved for grandma and granpa riding a trail at 2mph.

I think you should build a delta-wolf from steel and ride it.
Think you are worrying too much about weight.

The guy who brought me the ez3 to ride, then went and rode my wolf.

He was amazed at how well it handled and how FAST it was.

Bring your bikes to my house and I will race you on my wolf on any bike you choose.

I am fat and out of shape should be an easy win for you.

nelson

[AtomicZombie]

You could shave a few pounds off by wearing sandals, commando shorts, no helmet and a sleeveless shirt!

Ok, I am being silly, but in all honesty, I never designed any of my rides to be space age, state of the art, or featherweight - just fun, simple to build, and great to ride.

It sounds like you might as well start from scratch. Turning any of my machines into carbon fibre racers would be like changing a Cessna into the Space Shuttle.

I would like to see it though, so take pics!

Brad

[trikeman]

You guys have me wondering now where all the 50-55 pounds of weight is on my DeltaWolf. I know the frame contains about 12' of 1.5" 16ga steel at about 1 pound per foot. That makes the frame weigh 12 pounds naked. If I had built the frame from material that weighed nothing, it would still weigh 43 pounds.

I know I didn't use the lightest components money can buy. In fact I didn't buy many components at all. I am not at home right now, so I can't go weighing all the parts, but I wonder how they stack up? I know if I spent $1000 or more I could get all new lighter components.

Frame - 12 pounds.
Pillow block bearings -
Right wheel, tire, hub and axle with freewheel -
Left wheel and hub and axle w/disc brake caliper -
Seat -
Crank and pedals -
Chain -
Steering tube and handlebars with brake levers/shifters -
steering rod and rod bearings
Front fork -
Front wheel and tire -
Cables -

I will have to edit that list the next time I take it apart - it needs a better paint job anyway.

I would love to see the pictures of the space-age DW too, if only to dream about it.

[TOEZ3]

OK, I get it

The only reason I want a lighter trike is because my EZ3 begins to feel real heavy on long rides (100km+)

Don't get me wrong, I'm in excellent shape and I know that a lighter bike would be easier to ride even further. There is a reason pro cyclists ride 15lb bikes.

You guys bring up a excellent point about the design of the DW vs EZ3, that alone would be a huge improvement.

I think I'll go with a Aluminum frame and try and find me a light donor bike for the rest.

If I can built it around 40-45lb, I'm sure it will still ride circles around the EZ3

[Big Moe]

I see a lot of obsession about weight. I have built the Wolf and recently bought a ez3usx. Just recently rode 9 miles at Kensington park in Mich. which is quite hilly. I can cruize at 10 mph easy on flats, grunt a lot uphill and went 35mph down one hill. So what's the problem? I'm 66. 6'5" and weigh 275 and would probably bust one of those lightweights. I rode with a friend who was on his LaMond wedgie who is a seasoned rider. Kept up on the flats, wupped him downhill. I'm gonna ride that extra 50 lbs off and it'll feel like riding a 5 lb bike then.

Live(and build) to ride, ride to live.
MOE

[trikeman]

I don't think anyone should get the idea we are all stuck in the stone age (or I guess it would be the iron age), and are poo-pooing new ideas. Its just that we try to bounce ideas off each other here, and it is sometimes difficult to read the body language on the internet. I usually learn something here each day.

We sometimes talk about "weight weenies," or spandex clad riders, but most of us have thought about the same things ourselves, and I do own some spandex riding gear, and ride on 105 psi skinny tires on my wedgie. Its all in good fun, mostly.

I don't begrudge anyone who can weld aluminum, or build carbon fiber frames. I would like to be able to do it myself, but it usually turns out to be beyond my bike building budget or skills. If someone figures out a way to shave 15 pounds off my DeltaWolf without making it fall apart, I would probably jump on the mod. If I could just get rid of the 50 pound spare tire around my gut, I would be even happier.

I have also tried my best to beat Brad's designs at every turn by doing something differently. It usually turns out that he was right in the first place for the budget and tools I have at hand. That doesn't stop me from trying, and Brad does occasionally learn something from the rest of us, which sometimes shows up in a future build. As he has said, he produces his plans for the average man with limited or easily obtained tools. Most of us couldn't even weld steel when we started, let alone aluminum or titanium. Most of us never trued a wheel before. Many of us didn't know anything about bicycles, except how to ride one. But, somehow his books and plans, as well as the community here, gave us the courage to attempt something like a Meridian or DeltaWolf. People are constantly amazed we can even build such things in our garages. Every design can be improved with more thought, time and money.

I enjoy hearing all the good ideas (and the not so good ones too). I think most of us only throw out negatives at times to try and keep someone from going into a project without knowing what they are getting into.

As Mark Twain once said,

It is not best that we should all think alike; it is a difference of opinion that makes horse races.

[theTman]

i wonder how much weight you could lose through drilling holes in a steel DW frame before it becomes unsafe? Who wants to volunteer to turn their DW into swiss cheese :D

[trikeman]

i wonder how much weight you could lose through drilling holes in a steel DW frame before it becomes unsafe? Who wants to volunteer to turn their DW into swiss cheese :D

I think I just did that calculation on the TradeWinds forum yesterday.

[gbbwolf]

I weigh in at 332 pounds thats 23 pounds lost since I built my wolf.
23 more and my wolf will feel like it weighs 23 pounds.
Add my 332 to say 85 pounds of my bike.
And we clock in at well over 400 pounds.
Yes I have the heaviest delta-wolf ever built.
But then I think it's carrying the heaviest rider this design has ever seen.
It's 1.5 inch 14 guage tubing.
Then you add the wheel chair seat and double walled rims.
All the mods and extra brackets to hold seat and stuff.

A true testiment to brad's design that with some heavier tubing and 3/4 axles, doubled walled rims and a few other trick's, anyone can ride this thing.
Even with my girth I can still hit 18th gear on a flat, overun my gears and coast like a bat out of hell on hills.
And climb that same hill in 4th gear.
If you even like riding that ez3, you will LOVE the delta-wolf at any weight.

IMAO=In My Asinine Opinion
Nelson

[TOEZ3]

You genuinely have my blessings and any help I can offer to ease the build. I'd love to see it when you finish it.

I was tempted to offer suggestions on how to chop 10-13 pounds from your EZ-3, increase your speed by perhaps 15-20% or more, and share tips on improving its handling. But, since you've decided to start with a clean slate,...

Thanks, but I think building a new better trike will be just as much work and cost less than putting the EZ3 on a diet.

My only obstacle is the frame construction itself, I have no welding skills or tools what so ever.

[macka]

Toewz,

A lot of stuff with regards to carbonfiber layup can be done at home, however it must be vacuum bagged for maximum adhesion and strength. Also there is no guarantee that it won't break under stresses because of its design. One would have to do both a strength of material and static study of the design before attempting the layup. There would definately be changes to the base design to reinforce the headtube and bottom bracket area, as well as mounting points for the axle and seat. If you go with aluminium I'd suggest 6061T6 oval DOM tubing but you don't need a tig welder to join it. There are a lot of good glues stronger then welds which will mean less work for you, and on the off chance a weld gets the AL too hot the need to heat relieve the joint. Its very do able in AL but carbonfiber is a lot more work especially from scratch.

[gbbwolf]

Thanks, but I think building a new better trike will be just as much work and cost less than putting the EZ3 on a diet.

My only obstacle is the frame construction itself, I have no welding skills or tools what so ever.

Been there done that.

I had no welding skills or tools either.

I borrowed a welder from someone, bought an angle grinder for 30 bucks,
I did have a cordless 18 volt drill.

And I borrowed a sawzall to cut metal.

Then when I got done building mine the guy who loaned me his welder,wants a trike built.

He went and bought me a chop saw to use, and gave me the key to his garage to work from.
He has every tool I could ever need in it.

Whats the line from that movie about the baseball feild. " Build it and they will come."
Well I built it and I got people giving me old bikes now.
And people on the hun't for old steel for me.
Just got a bunch of free angle iron today.

Nelson

[locolarry]

TOEZ3,

An old Southern expression:

"Cain't never could do nuthing "

I couldn't weld, either. I was, in fact, a little afraid of it. I bought a good welder, new, in-the-box. It sat in my garage almost three months..un-opened! One day I decided that I was being silly and jumped in....Now I love it. The only thing holding you back....is...You.

Larry

[SirJoey]

I'll make it a point to remember that, Larry.
The only thing holding me back is YOU!


http://img185.imageshack.us/img185/9206/signaturehalloweenvr0.jpg

[locolarry]

Ouch!:eek:

[SirJoey]

Hey, isn't that what you said, Larry? I just repeated it back... LOL! ;)


http://img185.imageshack.us/img185/9206/signaturehalloweenvr0.jpg

[tdy2008]

You could shave a few pounds off by wearing sandals, commando shorts, no helmet and a sleeveless shirt!

Ok, I am being silly, but in all honesty, I never designed any of my rides to be space age, state of the art, or featherweight - just fun, simple to build, and great to ride.

It sounds like you might as well start from scratch. Turning any of my machines into carbon fibre racers would be like changing a Cessna into the Space Shuttle.

I would like to see it though, so take pics!

Brad

Hey Brad!

I'm in the process of adapting a marauder style LWB 'bent design of yours to a Carbon Fiber uni frame. I'm using a foam over layup method. The only problem is working with CF is a pain in an unheated shop. Shop needs to be at 70f or above for the Vinyl ester resin to setup. Gel time is either very very long or it never sets up at all. Catalysing Vinyl ester with MEKP is :rolleyes4: extremely toxic/flammable/explosive? in enclosed spaces so a word of caution is advised. There is a steep learning curve and it can get spendy in a hurry. If you muff one. Kiss $40 sq yd material goodbye. Planning, practice, study and asking a LOT of questions is a good thing.
As soon as it warms up I'll send some pictures of my progress.
In the meantime I'm buzzing up a cyclebully trailer while I wait for the UPS dude.
L8r)
PS: welding is FUN! Dave the ol Zippy :hippy:

[Radical Brad]

Sounds like a cool project - looking forward to the photos and ride report.

Thanks,
Brad

[studebiker]

Here's a nice one.......
http://www3.sympatico.ca/bowden10/Carbon.html