Wanted DW weight and ideas to lighten

[vegan777]

DW builders: how much does you DW weigh?

I'm expecting around 50 pounds.

Does anyone have ideas to make it lighter?

Can you buy cro-moly in square tubing?

Thanks,

[n9viw]

You can buy aluminum tubing in square stock, if that's an option for you. It would be no problem to tack weld the tubing with an oxy-acetylene or even oxy-propane torch, and take it to a shop to have it TIG-welded (or MIG welded with a spool gun) for finish. That would make it considerably lighter, albeit a bit stiffer than CrMo.

[Pagan Wizard]

A few minutes of searching the old forum turned up these threads about welding with aluminum

http://www.lucidscience.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=1189

and

http://www.lucidscience.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=1728

Hope that helps

[Odd Man Out]

Hi
I am in process of building my 4th, 5th and 6th DeltaWolf frames out of aluminum and would like to comment on what I have learned.

CONS:
1. All Aluminum is not as strong as steel. Period. Some AL is almost as strong -- the 7000 series is very strong but is very expensive and not made in square tubing. 6061T6011 or more commonly 6061T6 is the type AL that I use. It is not as strong as steel but is strong enough for the DW frame. This is the most important consideration. I saw a demonstration on the web where a person drilled 1 inch holes on all sides of a 1 foot length of 1.5 inch square x .125 thick piece of tubing to lighten it up. He then put a car jack under each end of the piece and used the aluminum tube to jack up his car off the ground. The piece of aluminum did not bend or deform in any way. That convinced me.

2. All Aluminum loses its temper when welded. When you weld two pieces of 6061T6 together, the weld area becomes T0. This means that instead of being fairly strong, the area that needs to be as strong as possible becomes really weak. This is why welded aluminum has a reputation for stress cracks. When untempered aluminum fails, it fails catastrophically -- you will be riding down the road fine one second and the next a piece of frame will crack and fly off. Not good. The way to solve this problem is to have your frame retempered after all welding is done. The process of retempering means that you "bake" the frame at a low temperature (375-425) for up to 14 hours in an oven and then immediately dip or "quench" the part in a bath of glycol. This will make the T0 areas back to T6. The weak frame is back to being strong and the probabilities for stress cracking is almost eliminated. This is why "regular" bike frames are safely made out of AL. The problem with getting a frame retempered is the price and the logistics; It is SUPER expensive and the tub of glycol that the part (frame) needs to be put in is usually too small for it (frame) to fit in. The solution I have used is to bake the frame without the glycol bath. This method is mucho cheaper (I get my frames done for 38 cents a pound). This method does not retemper all the way back to T6 but it does reestablish up to 85% of T6 temper. Again, good enough for me.

3. The welding process is more expensive and complicated. To really weld AL right you should use a TIG welder. TIG welding is an art and as with any art takes a while to master. Your first DeltaWolf frame would be a dangerous place to start to develop your skills.

Now for the PROS

1. Aluminum is lighter than steel. True Fact. One linear foot of 1.5 x 1.5 x .125 6061T6 AL weighs approx .84 pounds while one linear foot of 1.5 x 1.5 16 gauge steel weighs approx 1.2 pounds. A savings of about 6 ounces per linear foot. Since the DW takes approx 12 linear foot of material for the frame, this means you will save roughly 4+ pounds if you decide to make the frame out of AL. Notice though you need to use .125 (1/8th inch) wall thickness in AL and 16 gauge (1/16th inch) in steel. I guess a savings of 4 pounds matters if you are a hummingbird speedster and are seeking all ways to reach lightingspeed but since I am what some would call a "heavy drop", 4 pounds difference is laughable. This leads to the reason why I use AL...

2. Aluminum is much easier to work than steel. I use a woodworking table saw to cut up to 1/4 thick AL plate. It zips through the 1.5 square tubing like it was butter. I use a cheap ryobi drill press to make the cuts for the head tubes. The cuts are perfect and need no further cleanup.

3. Aluminum does not rust!!! Big bonus.


Final Thoughts:
I think using Aluminum for a DW frame is a great idea ONLY IF you have the frame retempered after all welding is complete. Otherwise you are asking for a dangerous surprise in the future.

Hope this loooong post has helped.


Odd Man Out -- formerly known as Laus Deo

[Patrike]

Hi guys

Not sure how many of you have seen this article. The Thunderbolt plans are the ones I tried to start with as a newbie. Big mistake -- anyway, the guy is a fantastic builder but more important does have stuff to say about welding aluminum and CroMo and Aluminum vers CroMo...


http://www.ihpva.org/com/PracticalInnovations/ (http://www.ihpva.org/com/PracticalInnovations/)

Regards
Patrick

[SirJoey]

Vegan,

I haven't gotten around to weighing mine yet, but I'm guessing it'll be over 50 lbs. Prolly closer to 60, I'll bet. I'll let you know when I know.

Hey Odd Man, I couldn't agree more about the weight. A few pounds more or less really means nothing, IMO. If 5 lbs or so meant that much to me, I'd diet a few of 'em off, cuz I'm prolly packin' an extra 10 on my gut, right now!

Now if we're talking like 20 or more, then that's another story.... :eek:

[Pagan Wizard]

http://www.ihpva.org/com/PracticalInnovations/ (http://www.ihpva.org/com/PracticalInnovations/)



I like the plans for constructing a seat on this site.

BTW, with me checking in at a touch over 260 pounds, I seriously doubt that the 5 or 6 pounds I would save in working with aluminum would make any difference what-so-ever. Then there is the cost issue of having the entire frame tempered.

[Patrike]

Hi PW

Yep -- 100% with you on the wieght thing. When you put on the pro's & con's down on paper for working with steel vs AL -- I think steel wins out when you are only talking about a few pounds and not trying for the HPV land speed record.

My first trike I used 2" by 1" by 1/8" wall steel -- things built like a tank and as heavy as one as well -- frame alone I wieghs in at 49lb

Heres a pic

http://www.trikes4all.com/trikefest/Pattrike3.jpg

I have reworked the front end control arms and now have disk brakes on on the front wheels -- I must have reworked this thing 3 or 4 times -- started out with a suspension rear end - then hard tail -- then a new hard tail -- seat mods -- steering mods...... That's the nice thing about steel -- I don't like that, grinder, new part, aaahhh much better.

Later
Patrick

[TheKid]

Not to mention the initial extra cost of the aluminum. I also have the plans for the TBolt, and plan on using steel tube for construction. It will still come in under 40 lbs.

[Patrike]

To go really light, use square carbon fiber tube. I have seen it sold on a few web locations. Joining ??? and $$$.

Patrick

[SirJoey]

Finally managed to precariously balance this baby on a set of scales which were perched on top of a 5 gallon bucket.

And the verdict... 65 pounds!

Bear in mind though, that includes a whole lot of accessories (headlight, 2 tail lights, water bottle & cage, flag, horn, mirror, & 2 rack trunks), together with the luggage rack, which is framed in heavy gauge 1" angle, all of which prolly account for at least 10 pounds.

[Pagan Wizard]

To go really light, use square carbon fiber tube. I have seen it sold on a few web locations. Joining ??? and $$$.

Patrick

Square CF tubes can be had here with a minimum purchase order of $200 USD's. This makes a DW a very pricey ride.

As for joining the tubes, is there a chemicle way if doing this? I have never worked with CF. About the only other way I can think of would be to make sleeves that fit inside the square tubes like Richie Rich did to turn his DW into a 4 wheeler. You can make the sleeves, weld them into the correct angles, slide the CF over the sleeve and epoxy it in place. How strong would that be?? How long would the joints last?? How would you fix the head tube to the front end of the DW, or would that have to made from round CF tube?? I couldn't even guess an answer to these questions.

http://www.carbon-tube.com/square.php

[Patrike]

I saw one site that sold straight CF inserts for joining their round tubes. I would wonder why a large company sell stuff like this would not have all the bells and whistles for joining?? I don't have any plans for doing and CF stuff in near future so I don't think I will put much effort at this time researching - but I am mildly intrigued about the whole idea!

Patrike


Square CF tubes can be had here with a minimum purchase order of $200 USD's. This makes a DW a very pricey ride.

As for joining the tubes, is there a chemicle way if doing this? I have never worked with CF. About the only other way I can think of would be to make sleeves that fit inside the square tubes like Richie Rich did to turn his DW into a 4 wheeler. You can make the sleeves, weld them into the correct angles, slide the CF over the sleeve and epoxy it in place. How strong would that be?? How long would the joints last?? How would you fix the head tube to the front end of the DW, or would that have to made from round CF tube?? I couldn't even guess an answer to these questions.

http://www.carbon-tube.com/square.php

[Patrike]

Wow -- I was thinking 55 give or take a lb. I am feeling good about my tadpole now coming in around 69lbs(no accessories) -- if I grind the rust off and I am down to 68.9 -- then paint and I am back to 71.

Patrike



Finally managed to precariously balance this baby on a set of scales which were perched on top of a 5 gallon bucket.

And the verdict... 65 pounds!

Bear in mind though, that includes a whole lot of accessories (headlight, 2 tail lights, water bottle & cage, flag, horn, mirror, & 2 rack trunks), together with the luggage rack, which is framed in heavy gauge 1" angle, all of which prolly account for at least 10 pounds.

[TOEZ3]

good read on the ALvsSteel

thanks

[ditz]

FYI ... A lot of people seem to have the conception the al. does not rust. The real term for iron or steel rust is oxidation. Aluminum does oxidize. It des not turn red but white. One of the uses of al. oxide is for real good sandpaper because it is very hard and abrasive. Al. must be protected from moisture just like steel.

[TheKid]

Carbon fiber is sometimes assmbled like a lugged frame, then the joints are wrapped with carbon fiber or Kevlar tape, and epoxied, Then the entire bike is epoxied. It's a lengthy process, and you have a certain window to lay the epoxy up, kinda like paint. If you wait too long, the entire project has to be sanded. Epoxy resin is expensive. You could use cheap polyester resin, but it has a tendency to develop small cracks. After spending a lot of cash on the carbon fiber to begin with, it makes no sense to use the poly resin. If the carbon fiber tubing costs 200 bucks, figure on doubling that to complete the frame.
As for the Thunderbolt, when made as per the plans with the same material, it weighs just 28 lbs. Muffler tubing brings the weight into the low to mid 30's. It's a very compact trike that I attempted, but with all the mods I'd need, it wasn't worth it. My Streetfox weighs in at 48 lbs., and I could easily ride it over hills. Over a long haul, I suppose I get more tired than I would have with a lighter trike, but I'm quite happy with it as is.

[TOEZ3]

I was looking for a delta like the Delta Wolf lighter than my 56lb EZ3

I figure if I use AL or even carbon fiber with light weight components, I can get something MUCH lighter

[cwesh]

If memory serves, in the beginning my Delta Wolf weighed in at 48lbs.

Of course it is a bit heavier than that now....... ~90 lbs. :eek:

(electric motor, batteries, 55 watt headlight and battery, tail light, luggage/battery rack, other small items.....)

:D

Later!

Chuck

[TOEZ3]

no electric for me

my bikes will remain HUMAN powered :)

[TheKid]

Odd Man Out reaffirms my estimation that an AL DW shaves about 4 lbs. off the total. So a 48lb. DW in steel, will be 44lbs. in aluminum. With a little imagination and some lighter components, I would think 42lbs. could be a reasonable goal.