BOM would be nice...

[erik]

Hey... as I'm collecting parts for my StreetFox build, I just thought I'd send some feedback on the PDF I downloaded.

The many images are very nice, and I like the narrative walkthrough you give.

But a bill of materials would be a big help for those of us starting out... just a list of all the stuff to collect, so we can have it handy for trips to bike shops and such. I'm going to go through the street fox plans and assemble one for myself, but I think it's a pretty basic, useful thing to include with plans.

Second, I'd like an overall drawing in black and white that shows the whole bike... the pictures of the completed bike are great, and the step by steps are good for doing those steps, but sometimes an overall plan view would make understanding where things go simpler.

So far so good otherwise,

Erik

[splodge]

I thought it was just me. I was about to do the same. I thought my computer had failed to download the last vital part!

[KoolKat]

But a bill of materials would be a big help for those of us starting out... just a list of all the stuff to collect, so we can have it handy for trips to bike shops and such.

Yes, agreed.

Second, I'd like an overall drawing in black and white that shows the whole bike... the pictures of the completed bike are great, and the step by steps are good for doing those steps, but sometimes an overall plan view would make understanding where things go simpler.

You mean like a CAD drawing?

[Odd Man Out]

A very generic bill of materials would be nice I guess but it would be impossible (and limiting) to provide a specific list. The options are almost endless. I understand that the beginning hacker would take refuge in a specific list but part of the learning process (and fun at least for me) is learning all about the different bike parts and how they all go together. It really is an empowering feeling to be able to build your creation from the ground up with the knowledge that you have it exactly as you envisioned it to be. Having a list of specific derailers, bolt sizes and such really keeps some in a box. Not having a specific list forces one to learn. My zwei phennigs.

[erik]

It doesn't have to be a CAD drawing, just a black and white line drawing would be fine. A CAD three-view would be ideal... side view, top view basically.

It's good to learn while doing this, and certainly having less docs and directions forces you to think, but it also increases the chance of getting the wrong parts, or missing something for your build you have to find later (and stopping you right when you're getting excited about being close to done).

I can tell these plans are made by people who work on bikes... for someone like me who's never built a bike before (I've built other things) the lack of info on basics is a problem. Same thing with the assumption that I have a bike "junk pile" :) If I had lots of spare bike parts lying around, I could probably figure out how to build a bike on my own.. but I don't, so I need the plans.

I need to know semi-obvious stuff like how to cable brakes and shifters (crimping? Can I use cable type X vs. Y?) so I need to find a book or website to help me understand doing that. Or is there a doc on this on your web site I haven't seen yet? How about a guide to the different types of hardware found on junk-pile bikes, and problems/benefits to using them for builds? I think the person who is going to buy all new parts to build a street fox is rare compared to one who will salvage everything he can.

The plans are good, and certainly enough for anyone with some bike building or maintenance experience to work from, but for me I need a bit more info before I can start collecting parts. On the bright side, building the bike is explained well enough that I won't have any trouble building once I figure out what I need to have in hand.

Erik

[Zwolf]

Maybe something along the lines of a general listing? 1 derailer, handle bars, 3 tires and rims to match... ect... Something even general like that maybe?

[TheKid]

For the Streetfox: Two donor bikes, one a 26" with rear suspension, some 1 1/2" square tubing (Read the plans to figure out how much) some 1" square tubing, (Ditto) 3/8" steel rod for the tie rod, and two tie rod ends , two 20" BMX wheels with 14mm axles, 6-8" of 1/8"x1 1/2" flat bar, 8-10" of 1/4" x 1 1/2" flat bar, one dual cable brake lever if you plan on using the rear brake. Plywood for the seat, some foam for the seat cushion and some sort of fabric for a seat cover. Just by reading the plans, it's easy enough to figure out. As for cables, the existing cables from the donor bikes will work. Instead of a dual brake lever, you could make one lever work both front brakes by using a number of alternatives, some of which are described in the forums. Locutus showed his solution for the Marauder, I showed one for my LWB tadpole trike. Search the forums and you'll find just about any info you need. Also Google Sheldon Brown. Sheldon was summoned by the highest authority recently, but his sites with a wealth of his knowledge live on.
There are those of us who prefer to use new parts, or better quality parts than on the bikes we find. That's up to the individual builder. As for not having a supply of donor bikes, don't worry, you will. You'll find them in thrift shops, on Craigslist, along the curb on trash nights, at the local dump, all kinds of places. Sometimes your LBS will give you bikes that people traded in, or you'll get the word out you're looking for bikes and people will give them to you or sell them cheap. Along the way, you may find exercise machines for tubing and pulleys. You may find other useful items not related to bike building, like computers.
Try to be inventive. Someone always comes up with an alternative or a new idea, even those who never attempted to build a bike. We all benefit from it. Oh, and take lots of pics.

[erik]

For the Streetfox: Two donor bikes, one a 26" with rear suspension, some 1 1/2" square tubing (Read the plans to figure out how much) some 1" square tubing, (Ditto) 3/8" steel rod for the tie rod, and two tie rod ends , two 20" BMX wheels with 14mm axles, 6-8" of 1/8"x1 1/2" flat bar, 8-10" of 1/4" x 1 1/2" flat bar, one dual cable brake lever if you plan on using the rear brake. Plywood for the seat, some foam for the seat cushion and some sort of fabric for a seat cover. Just by reading the plans, it's easy enough to figure out.

Good example. My list from the plans is a bit different. I didn't estimate the square tubing because it's annoying to add up all the short lengths. I just bought 16 feet total of 1.5". I didn't even notice the 1 inch square tubing. The tie rod I have listed is a tube, not a steel rod.

Sure, you can find a lot of hints, tips, and solutions online.

But isn't the point of selling plans for a bike to help out the beginners that can't figure out/find this stuff for themselves? Anyone who has the time and knowledge to surf for the links you posted and collect the knowledge they need can probably also build this bike by looking at the example or gallery pics... so why not make things easy for those of us starting out, who are looking for a guaranteed plan that works rather than doing guesswork on their own design? Or is there a bike plan here that I missed that does this?

More to the point, why supply a 90+ page step by step plan and have it not include some basic info that newbies will need?

I'll have to start keeping my eyes open for junk bikes.. you must live somewhere nice. The bike shops here take all useable parts off a bike and scrap the rest, and if you want the junker they'll sell it to you cheap.. but no free lunch :)




As for cables, the existing cables from the donor bikes will work. Instead of a dual brake lever, you could make one lever work both front brakes by using a number of alternatives, some of which are described in the forums. Locutus showed his solution for the Marauder, I showed one for my LWB tadpole trike. Search the forums and you'll find just about any info you need. Also Google Sheldon Brown. Sheldon was summoned by the highest authority recently, but his sites with a wealth of his knowledge live on.
There are those of us who prefer to use new parts, or better quality parts than on the bikes we find. That's up to the individual builder. As for not having a supply of donor bikes, don't worry, you will. You'll find them in thrift shops, on Craigslist, along the curb on trash nights, at the local dump, all kinds of places. Sometimes your LBS will give you bikes that people traded in, or you'll get the word out you're looking for bikes and people will give them to you or sell them cheap. Along the way, you may find exercise machines for tubing and pulleys. You may find other useful items not related to bike building, like computers.
Try to be inventive. Someone always comes up with an alternative or a new idea, even those who never attempted to build a bike. We all benefit from it. Oh, and take lots of pics.

[Danner]

No disagreement with anything said here. I'm new to this too. But I know that the plan I bought was a lot of work, and for $17 bucks it's a steal. I'm sure Bradley & co. aren't getting rich quick!

Thanks to the great community here to fill in the gaps, at an even BETTER price!

Dan

[trikeman]

While I had never built a bike before I bought the plans and built the DW, I have ridden bikes for many years and done things like fixing flat tires etc. I found a few things confusing, but nothing that a simple message to the forum didn't clear up. To me, reading over the plans and puzzling over building it in my head was a good learning experience for the actual build. I had also never welded, and that wasn't covered in the plans. I didn't expect it to be.

I also found that Brad and Kat's Bicycle Building Bonanza book to be an excellent source for how to take apart a donor bike and the many plans in that book gives you a good idea of what the building is about. It even covers rudimentary welding. I highly recommend it for a newbie and it has numerous "plans." I bought the first book because I felt I needed a bit more background on the first build. I was not disappointed and gladly bought the second book when it came out. I can also remember wanting a bill of materials myself.

I suspect that if each plan had to cover everything you need to know to build and maintain a bike, the plans would have to cost $30-$50 or more. Personally, I would rather have the simple ones, and in fact find the plans in the books adequate, once you have built one or two.

[Odd Man Out]

Sure, you can find a lot of hints, tips, and solutions online.

But isn't the point of selling plans for a bike to help out the beginners that can't figure out/find this stuff for themselves? Anyone who has the time and knowledge to surf for the links you posted and collect the knowledge they need can probably also build this bike by looking at the example or gallery pics... so why not make things easy for those of us starting out, who are looking for a guaranteed plan that works rather than doing guesswork on their own design? Or is there a bike plan here that I missed that does this?


Erik

Please understand that I am not directing this at you. Rather my post is directed at all a broad slice of the population. Unfortunately I am using your post as an example. Please don't take offense -- I have not meant any.

I am a high school social studies teacher and I find many of my students, when asked a question, respond with; "I don't know, why don't you just give me the answer." I answer their query with; "because if I do I will have helped you to remain ignorant, and that is something I refuse to do."

I have seen very few plans of any kind that are 100% complete. Woodworking plans for example do not address how to change a saw blade for the myriad types of saws out there. Boat plans do not address how long to let the glue dry. Brads plans are by far the most complete I have seen and I collect homebuilt bike plans. Anyone who does something from plans will by necessity have to come up with some solutions on their own. It is the nature of the beast. Building anything takes a fair amount of commitment. If looking through the forum for answers or using the forum to get your questions answered seems like too much "work", then you might want to rethink your motivation to build something.

We are here to help. We enjoy helping and offering advise. Use us. It would be impossible for Brad to detail every process (what grit what do you sand with, do you sand or do you not sand), procedure (do you spray paint, what color, do you power coat, etc.), equipment decision (what speed cassette you use 5,.6,7,8,9,10, do you use a top down or bottom up pull derailer), manufacturing process ( do you braze, MIG, TIG, SMAW, how do you cut the material, table saw, band saw, skill saw). Impossible and unreasonable to ask.

It is incumbent on us to figure some things out. The difference between a newby (which I am not too far from) and a experienced vet is knowledge.
Knowledge can not be forced, and it cannot be rejected. A person must be thirsty for it. The knowledge is here, all you need do is drink.

P.S. Before I started this hobby I did not know what a bottom bracket, headset or gripshift was. Again I mean no one harm. I am here to educate and learn.

[TheKid]

Good example. My list from the plans is a bit different. I didn't estimate the square tubing because it's annoying to add up all the short lengths. I just bought 16 feet total of 1.5". I didn't even notice the 1 inch square tubing. The tie rod I have listed is a tube, not a steel rod.



Oops. I went off the top of my head. Brad uses tubing for his tie rods, I use solid rod. As for the 1 1/2" square tube, I think most of us estimate rather than add up every little piece. What's left over goes toward the next project anyway.
Like you, I find that most LWB's charge for everything, but if you find one with a decent owner and become a regular customer, he or she might give you some slack. Some of them are so impressed by our bikes, they start asking questions about how you built it etc.
I built a PVC quad (A disaster. PVC sucks in areas with drastic climate changes and in cold weather) and needed some parts. I didn't like the tires I had, I needed lower gearing, mirrors, horn etc. So I rode it to a few shops to price the parts as compared to online. Most of them liked the quad, but showed no interest in helping me out with inexpensive parts. The last one I went to was very impressed. I bought two tires, two mirrors, a horn, a lock, some tandem cables and sheathing. Total cost was 70 bucks. I asked him for the most inexpensive items that were of decent quality. Then I asked about lower gears. He gave me an old Schwinn 5 speed freewheel that was never used, and a derailler from an old bike, along with some shifters and brake levers, saying he wanted to see any other bikes I built. He also offered to give me bikes he took as trade-ins, if I promised to use them for future projects. I got two bikes from him when I started the Meridian. I haven't been able to get there too often, but he always takes care of me and spends a lot of time. The last time I went was a half-hour before he closed, and he was busy. He asked me to wait a few minutes, then he locked the door and spent almost an hour with me looking through his books for some accessories I was interested in. Shop around, you're bound to find someone interested in bikes, not just the business.

[Radical Brad]

I think I could probably put together a "general" parts list, but once you read through the entire plan you will see how difficult it would be considering one of the steps may say something along the lines of "now if you are going to use a 20 inch rim instead of a 26 inch rim...".

The CAD drawing is something I will probably never do because it would most likely add more confusion than clarity to most of the plans, which promote using the parts you have on hand and to make mods to better suit your body weight and size. Just replacing a 1.5 inch square tube with a 1.25 inch round tube could throw off a drawing by so much that an important angle could be skewed.

Head tube size, donor frame dimensions, inseam length, rims size, fork styles, and so many other variables make it almost impossible to reliably deliver a usable "blue print". I know it seems strange to figure head tube angle by placing a butchered frame up on a bucket with the front wheel installed, but this way guarantees that your important dimensions will be proper no matter what kind of frame you decided to hack up for parts.

Brad

[gbbwolf]

Yeah when I built my first deltawolf, I thought wow a parts list would be GREAT.

Then after going through the build I thought well nuts I guess I don't need a parts list.

Parts list would be kinda useless as you may not be able to find the EXACT part that brad uses.

Thats the greatest thing about brad's plan you can always improvise your own solution.

I have collected several free plans, that include cad drawings and parts list.

But never used them although very interesting designs.

You can get what I have for free in my file section but one caveat unless your an engineer with a machine shop you won't enjoy them.

I will post a link to my yahoo file page If brad approves.

Don't think he would mind but always good to ask, they are readily available on other website if you google and search.

Here is a typical parts list from plans.

http://d.yimg.com/kq/groups/22086635/sn/188635356/name/Parts+list.jpg

nelson

[gbbwolf]

I think I could probably put together a "general" parts list, but once you read through the entire plan you will see how difficult it would be considering one of the steps may say something along the lines of "now if you are going to use a 20 inch rim instead of a 26 inch rim...".

The CAD drawing is something I will probably never do because it would most likely add more confusion than clarity to most of the plans, which promote using the parts you have on hand and to make mods to better suit your body weight and size. Just replacing a 1.5 inch square tube with a 1.25 inch round tube could throw off a drawing by so much that an important angle could be skewed.

Head tube size, donor frame dimensions, inseam length, rims size, fork styles, and so many other variables make it almost impossible to reliably deliver a usable "blue print". I know it seems strange to figure head tube angle by placing a butchered frame up on a bucket with the front wheel installed, but this way guarantees that your important dimensions will be proper no matter what kind of frame you decided to hack up for parts.

Brad

Yeah like on my tadpole I had 1 headset that was 1 inch and one that was 1 1/8 but had no problems cutting them to same length for same height, installing new star nuts and bolts, and getting them ligned up the same.

If I had to find 2 that matched perfectly I would still be searching for parts.

Improvisation is the key so you can use whatever you have on hand.

Wish I had a machine shop and knowhow to build one of the plans I have in my file's, but then cost would be comparable to buying a ready built trike, if I had to have it all done for me.

Nelson

[Radical Brad]

I would never object to anyone posting their parts list. I actually made one for a few of the bikes and then realized it would do more harm than good. Imagine purchasing only what was on the BOM only to realize later that you are in fact the person that needs an extra 6 inch long main boom or a 3/4 axle, not the 5/8 version.... ouch!

Brad

[gbbwolf]

I would never object to anyone posting their parts list. I actually made one for a few of the bikes and then realized it would do more harm than good. Imagine purchasing only what was on the BOM only to realize later that you are in fact the person that needs an extra 6 inch long main boom or a 3/4 axle, not the 5/8 version.... ouch!

Brad

Was more concerned about posting a link to my file plans, they are not yours just free plans I found online.

They would be ok for someone who has a machine shop or access to one more of cad drawings than plans.

Just don't wanna burn my bridge here cause i like it here lol.

Nelson

[vrooom3440]

I am just starting this knowledge gather process myself on a DW. I would not expect a parts list exactly... but a list of steel supplies might have been nice.

I ended up creating a spreadsheet in outline form. The major first level headings are particular sizes of steel like 1.5" x 0.065 square tubing. Under those headings are lines that list the part description, length, and quantity. These combine to calculate the length for each type of part with some extra fudge added in to allow for saw kerf. Those calculations are summed up into the headings to create my shopping list.

It was slightly challenging to scan the text to find all the parts/sizes and not miss any.

But truth in advertising once I got to the "steel store" some of the particulars changed as I scrounged their remnant piles rather than just cut new stuff up. And I did add extra 1.5" tube so I could practice some welds before the big party ;-)

And honestly we all change stuff from the plans too...

[PeterT]

You need to remember one thing; you are building your bike, with your budget, and your abilities, to your specifications, talents and expectations!

Brad has already built his to the above, and is now sharing the building blocks so we can start to build our own toys.

If you don't have the ability to modify/adapt/hack/change something to suit you, then buy a factory built bike, and be one of the masses.

All of us here have started by thinking we need this part/tool to do this the way Brad has done it, and then found out in the process of making it that Brad is a whippet and we are a hippo, or vice versa, :jester: or Brad is 4'0" and we are 7'6", :jester: and it doesn't suit us.

Enjoy the learning curve, hang on when you start sliding backwards, ask lots of questions and post lots of pics. and before long newbies will be asking you the same questions as you started asking us

PeterT