Build Blog For Spartan and Hoplite Warrior Trikes

[Odd Man Out]

Hello all
I have been a zombie for a while and have a lot of experience building the DeltaWolf in aluminum. I still love the design but I feel I have been possessed with an unnatural attraction for the Warrior design. So I am going to build two.

I have created this thread to be a build blog of sorts. I intend to have the trikes completed by next summer so please don't expect rapid results. I want to do them justice. Here is what I am thinking about:

The main frame out of .049 x 1.75 chromoly round tube -- the first three sections (from front to back) being a single tube bent to shape by a muffler shop I already have lined up.

The crossbar being a single tube, bent to shape, notched and welded into place.

The axles are going to be lathed from a round piece of 7075 aluminum.

Components that will do Brad's design justice.

I am a pretty good TIG welder in aluminum, I need to practice a bit before I tackle the welding. I am blessed to be a member of a place called "Techshop" (check it out online -- www.techshop.com). At techshop I have access to all sorts of metalworking machines; lathes and mills both CNC and regular so I will remain true to my name: Odd Man Out by being the anti hacker and using all new items. I have already scored the rear rims and the seats. You can check out the seats on the British Ebay: http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Recumbent-bike-seat-size-M-NEW-DESIGN_W0QQitemZ320413390905QQcmdZViewItemQQptZUK_ sportsleisure_cycling_bikeparts_SR?hash=item4a9a20 5839&_trksid=p3911.c0.m14. And the rims can be seen at http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=200291404975&ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT
What do you think?

I welcome all comments and suggestions

That's it for now -- wish me luck

[trikeman]

It will be great to see the Warrior in round tube. WIll follow your build with interest. Did you consider using 2" 4130 in 0.035 thickness? It would probably weigh about the same and be a bit stiffer.

Love the seat. Is it carbon or some sort of plastic? Its nice and light and looks comfy. What do they charge to ship to the US?

[John Lewis]

For interest the main frame tube of my Logo trike is 1.5" by .058" wall CroMo. The sliding Boom is 1.375". The trike is all TIG welded. Interesting point. Once the welding was done all the joints were heated to red with a acetelene torch and then allowed to cool slowly out of drafts. This apparently stress relieves the metal and stops the liklihood of cracking. If you are not up to speed with welding CroMo it might be worth looking at Wicks or one of the other homebuilt aircraft suppliers for a book on the topic as many homebuilt fuselages are from CroMo either TIG welded or fusion welded with a torch and filler rod. As far as I know MIG is not used but don't hold me to that.

John Lewis

[SirJoey]

Those are gonna be some (more) exceptional machines from the OMO aluminum factory! :punk:

Dang, but I wish I had learned TIG. Oh well, no point now.

Oh, and good luck! Lookin' forward to seeing more of your outstanding work. :)


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[Odd Man Out]

Did you consider using 2" 4130 in 0.035 thickness? It would probably weigh about the same and be a bit stiffer.

Love the seat. Is it carbon or some sort of plastic? Its nice and light and looks comfy. What do they charge to ship to the US?

Trikeman
I tested (by putting it on two sawhorses and bouncing up and down on it) a 1.5 round by .035 by 6 feet section of round chromoly and it bent a small bit. I wiegh 220 and want a safety factor built in. Also I can't find 2 inch round chromoly in anything smaller than .049.

I was very excited when I found it. It is Fiberglass reinforced plastic. It only weighs 1 pound more than the lightest carbon fiber seat and is $250 cheaper. I can live with that weight penalty. Apparantly the guy uses the British ebay site to sell them so I think I found my new source for seats. The shipping from England to the West coast of the US is 15 pounds which works out to $22

[Odd Man Out]

For interest the main frame tube of my Logo trike is 1.5" by .058" wall CroMo. The sliding Boom is 1.375". The trike is all TIG welded. Interesting point. Once the welding was done all the joints were heated to red with a acetelene torch and then allowed to cool slowly out of drafts. This apparently stress relieves the metal and stops the liklihood of cracking.

John Lewis

Thanks for the info John. I was aware of the need for the Oxy stress relieving part of welding chromoly. The great thing about my membership at Techshop is that they have both TIG, MIG and Oxy welders there. So I do plan on stress relieving after welding. Also I do not plan on using the "recommended" chromoly filler rods but rather er70s2 rods

[Locutus]

OMO, I'll be watching these builds with interest, because I'd also like to build this design with chromoly round tube. I wonder if I'll be able to manage it with my little 50/70 amp AC arc welder.

I welded a couple of little chromoly pieces to the steel tubing of my Marauder and they seem to be holding up fine. But even 1/16" steel tube can be difficult to weld without blowing holes in it if the joints aren't perfectly aligned. I imagine it will be even more so with thinner chromoly stock. I wonder if 1/16" 7014 electrodes will be adequate.

[Odd Man Out]

I wonder if I'll be able to manage it with my little 50/70 amp AC arc welder.
I wonder if 1/16" 7014 electrodes will be adequate.

You need to TIG weld chromoly with the welder set on DCen. Don't know if AC will work on it. I only TIG so not sure about the 7014's. I plan to use 1/16 ceriated tungsten with er70s2 filler rod. Might go with smaller rod if needed aslo.

[Odd Man Out]

Dang, but I wish I had learned TIG. Oh well, no point now.



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Thanks Joey for the positive comments.
You are the model to which I aspire :punk:

[trikeman]

OMO, I'll be watching these builds with interest, because I'd also like to build this design with chromoly round tube. I wonder if I'll be able to manage it with my little 50/70 amp AC arc welder.

I welded a couple of little chromoly pieces to the steel tubing of my Marauder and they seem to be holding up fine. But even 1/16" steel tube can be difficult to weld without blowing holes in it if the joints aren't perfectly aligned. I imagine it will be even more so with thinner chromoly stock. I wonder if 1/16" 7014 electrodes will be adequate.

Loc. You wll face quite a challenge welding that 0.049 4130 with that arc welder. Why not just braze it with gas, like thousands of bike and even some race car chassis builders have done for 50 years? Its plenty strong and easier to learn. I really enjoy my oxy-acetylene set much more than any welder I have, especially since I can see what is going on. Of course you can see even better with TIG, but its pretty expensive to acquire a good one. You can do a good job with Oxy-MAAP setup at Home Depot for about $50. From what I read, one or two bottles of the $8 gas will do ya for one frame. Its also much easier on the tubing metal and no post-weld heat treat is required.

[savarin]

Hi OMO,
can you clear up a faulty memory?
I seem to remember cleaning aluminium prior to welding with nitric acid and stainless wire brushes.
Am I dreaming?
It was 30+ years ago.

[Odd Man Out]

Hi OMO,
can you clear up a faulty memory?
I seem to remember cleaning aluminium prior to welding with nitric acid and stainless wire brushes.
Am I dreaming?
It was 30+ years ago.

Not sure about the nitric acid but the cleaner the better and use only stainless wire brushes that have only touched aluminum -- once they touch anything else they are no good, your welds will suffer.

[John Lewis]

Thanks for the info John. I was aware of the need for the Oxy stress relieving part of welding chromoly. The great thing about my membership at Techshop is that they have both TIG, MIG and Oxy welders there. So I do plan on stress relieving after welding. Also I do not plan on using the "recommended" chromoly filler rods but rather er70s2 rods

We have found that stainless rod made an excellent filler too. Can't recall what grade.

Wish they had something like Techshop round here.

John Lewis

[SirJoey]

Thanks Joey for the positive comments.
You are the model to which I aspire :punk:Roll up your pants legs, boys... it's too late to save your shoes!

OMO, you KNOW your stuff looks better than anything I've EVER built! Seriously! :)

While I'm building QUANTITY, you're building QUALITY!


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[savarin]

Not sure about the nitric acid but the cleaner the better and use only stainless wire brushes that have only touched aluminum -- once they touch anything else they are no good, your welds will suffer.

Yep, always used stainless brushes but for some weird reason I have this idea we also used nitric.
A quick search has shown a couple of others using it as well. ie caustic to remove the oxide, water wash, nitric dip to remove any other contaminants, water wash, brush and weld.
Maybe thats what I'm remembering.

[SirJoey]

Maybe thats what I'm remembering.Maybe these guys :alien: :alien: :alien: tampered with your memory...



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[Odd Man Out]

Well I am in process of gathering (also known as spending my way to the poorhouse) parts needed for both "Spartan" my and "Hoplite" my wife's trikes. YeeGods things are expensive!!!
I am embarrassed to admit how much I have spent already but I want to be as up front and honest in this blog and to detail things as much as possible. So fully comfortable in my moniker; "Odd Man Out" and totally going agains't the AZ ethos (sorry all), I hereby list my parts so far...

2 Fiberglass reinforced plastic recumbent seats: $188
8 Thudbuster elastomers: $50 -- I am going to use these under the seats as a type of suspension.
4 Hope Pro II 20mm front hubs 36H red: $360
4 Schwalbe Durano 451-28 tires and 6 Schwalbe tubes: $221
4 Velocity Fusion 20 inch 451 rims: $258
2 packages of 72 Velocity Veloplugs: $32
2 packages of 100 DT Swiss Proloc 2.0x14mm Alloy Red Nipples: $100
4 12"x1.5" 7075 AL round rod: $63 -- To be machined into the axles
144 DT Swiss Champion 14 guage black spokes 198mm: $152

All amounts include shipping. Again I am really shocked at the amount of money that has flown out on my pocket -- I gotta wait a while before buying much else. I don't have anything yet -- all are in the mail. When things come in I will post picts. Definately.

I am sitting here trying to end this post but still feel the need to explain my conspicuous comsumption so here goes; I fell in love with the Warrior trike design. I had been building DeltaWolves and had been loving that but when the Warrior came into the picture my allegience changed -- no more manufacturing rear hubs or one off drive trains. Don't get me wrong -- the DW is the best delta trike in the world, bar none but the Warrior hit me on a visceral level (could it be because I am a retired soldier???) and I decided that if I am going to built it then I would build it to the best of my abilities with the best components. I am sorry if I cross the line for some Zombies with this philosophy. It is not my intent. My intent is to do justice to a wonderful design.

More to come :punk:

[SirJoey]

DANG!!! And I thought I was WAY over the top, back when I totalled around $800 on my KC,
by far & away, the most expensive HPV I've ever built! Of course, this was over a period of 11 months, though.

Besides, although this sounds exhorbitant, a comparably equipped Rhoades car is around $4500,
making my $800 Kroozer seem much less extravagant! :)

...not to mention the fact that simple, entry-level recumbent BIKES start at around $700-$800!


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[joebiker]

Odd Man Out: the Thudbuster seat suspension, sounds like an interesting concept. Have you tried it before, or do you have any ideas on how it will work?

[Odd Man Out]

Odd Man Out: the Thudbuster seat suspension, sounds like an interesting concept. Have you tried it before, or do you have any ideas on how it will work?

I have yet to put it into real world practise but I have experimented with it.
It will help smooth things out -- of course not nearly as well as a fully suspended bike but I figure anything is better than nothing. I experimented by putting four ( do not know what "rating" they were ) under a board that I sat and bounced on. I did feel some give. The ones I am using are the least strong -- they are rated from 60 to 90 pounds each. I plan on putting one at each corner of the seat. When I get things set up I will report on the results.

P.S. The wife's seat arrived today -- it is sweet! Hopefully mine will show tomorrow. If so, picts to follow.

[joebiker]

Thudbusters sound like a pretty simple shock absorber technique, I have to try it too!

[Odd Man Out]

The seats arrived from England. I was apprehensive because I live on the west coast of the U.S. and our postal system is not known for being gentle...
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3464/3917807108_8ebd8b7af1.jpg
I should not have worried. They were packed extremely well. The photo above shows the smaller of the two seats. They put cardboard all around it in actual contact with the seat, then wrap it completely in high strength tape. The seat itself is so rigid and strong that the only way something could hurt it would be to pierce the cardboard. Also all the edges that were in contact with the cardboard were wrappped in masking tape. Nice touch.

I am building two trikes, one for my wife and myself so got one in the small and one in the medium.
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2507/3917807008_331d7fc023.jpg
I am 5' 11" and tried the small seat. It was tight feeling but in a pinch I could use it. The medium fit like a glove. This is the first time I am trying a hard shelled seat (I am used to the RANS seats so am totally spoiled) so it felt a bit "different" at first. I put it on an outdoor chair at different angles and sat in it while reading a book. Final verdict; it fits like a glove!
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3436/3917807044_664e1277a4.jpg
The medium is on the left -- notice the rounded edge at the base. I pretended to pedal at various angles and never noticed any "bite" on the back of my thighs. One thing I did notice though...
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2527/3917806942_a777e518c7.jpg
Is how slippery this seat is. I had to prop it against something to take the above pict or else it would slide away. This will certainly need padding or else I will be ejected like a rocket on the first hard corner!
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3508/3917806974_5ec9641a84.jpg
You can see what I mean - that gloss black gelcoat is slick!!!
Finally the last picture shows generally where I plan to attach the elastomeric suspension, one on each side:
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2439/3917806884_dfc83f6fd3_b.jpg
The bottom line for me is that these seats are da bomb! At about $85.00 delivered from England, it is a heck of a deal. They are only 1000 grams = about 2.2 pounds. They feel lighter than that though. Hope this helps John.

[savarin]

They look beautiful, This looks as if I must make it up with my sister in the UK now.
They really do look excellent.

[Odd Man Out]

All I need to do is thread them and have them anodized the same red as the hubs. They are machined out of 7075 Aluminum and are .001 less than the interior diameter of the hubs.
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3472/3938953220_1b23acc06b.jpg

I got to admit to wimpin out -- I blame it on my old age or sense of morality or something. I originally lathed the points at 45 degrees. Nice and pointy! I stood around smiling for awhile until that little voice inside my head started talkin about liability and what would she who must be obeyed say and such. They are now at 30 degrees. Not as pointy but now they don't scream; "I'm going the kill you!!!"
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2433/3938175891_2a31fd5074.jpg

[Radical Brad]

I have the feeling the completed project is going to be a serious work of art.

Brad

[trikeman]

Amen to that. That is some serious bike porn there.

[SirJoey]

Just incredible! :punk:

Although I hated it when I had to do it for a living,
that makes me wish I had a lathe.


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[Freth]

Dang! Makes me wish I had a little lathe to play with. That is beautiful work!!! :-)

[savarin]

they look absolutely gorgeous.
More impetus to finish my lathe.
How will they be held on to the king pins?
Threaded at the end?

[Odd Man Out]

How will they be held on to the king pins?
Threaded at the end?

Yes they will be threaded on the smaller part at the end. I am also planning on using a lathe milling machine combo to make the complete steering tube/attachment piece out of a single piece of 7075 aluminum as well.

[Odd Man Out]

I have the feeling the completed project is going to be a serious work of art.

Brad

Brad
You created the work of art -- All I am trying to do is to represent it to the best of my abilities.
Thanks again to you and Kat for all that you do for us.

[locolarry]

Beautiful OMO!

I love hanging out with "Gifted" people here on this site...maybe some of the talent will rub off onto me one of these days! You are an inspiration to all of us to do our best work! Thanks for sharing...Guys 'n Gals...that metal clank your heard was "The Bar" being raised a notch.

Larry

[Odd Man Out]

Beautiful OMO!

I love hanging out with "Gifted" people here on this site...maybe some of the talent will rub off onto me one of these days! You are an inspiration to all of us to do our best work! Thanks for sharing...Guys 'n Gals...that metal clank your heard was "The Bar" being raised a notch.

Larry

Larry
Thanks for the high compliments -- "gifted? me? I don't think so. I am just proof that anyone who has a desire to do something and sets their mind to do it can accomplish it. Before joining this site in 06 the closest I had come to manipulating metal was when I used a knife fork and spoon to eat with.

[Odd Man Out]

Got back the two main tubes from the tube bender -- Magnificent!http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2565/3953656087_a885c5376b_b.jpg

I originally wanted to do it in 1.75 by .049 ChroMoly but could not find a place that would guarantee (or even offer) to do it without kinks. I would have to go with a thicker tube -- at least .065. Being that is the case, I decided to go with a smaller tube but thicker, ergo 1 inch diameter by .065. It actually wieghs a nad less than the 1.75 by .049. I intend to have the part that the wheels attach to as 1.5 inch thick. I am planning to drill a 1 inch hole through it and put the main frame through it and weld it all around.
Here is a pict with the seat on it;http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2635/3954436754_b40132984c_b.jpg

I tweaked the angles a bit. I angled the seat back 5 degrees more and raised the front part 5-10 degrees from the plans. Here is another pict with the seat angled a bit more;
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2657/3954431546_908fab0186_b.jpg

The yellow tape on the front indicates the end of my inseam - 38 inches. Haven't decided on what seat angle I will go with. Final decision will be made after the wheels are put on. Currently definately leaning towards the more reclined attitude...

More to come.

[Danner]

Gorgeous. How do the two inclinations compare to your DW's or other builds?

[Odd Man Out]

Gorgeous. How do the two inclinations compare to your DW's or other builds?

The first is a bit more than the angle for the DW seats I do. The second is more reclined -- I was thinking of doing a superreclined DW before the Warrior was introduced...

[Odd Man Out]

I am kind of surprised that no one has asked why the "stub" is hanging out from the rear of the frame piece. It is going to help me attach the rear part of the frame. I took a shot of the computer screen to show what I have planned;
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3037/3960123685_c6e3a192b8.jpg

I am going to have two pieces bent as shown. Then I am going to cut them on the green line and weld them together. This will produce a single solid piece that I can then slide over the "stub" and weld on. The effect I am after is a flowing single structure for the main frame. I am going to use .065 x 1.125 tube to slide over the 1 inch tube. The inside diameter of the 1.125 is .995. I figure with a bit of sanding that things should fit and be a super strong connection.

Tomorrow I order the ChroMoly

Picts to follow of course.

[Danner]

We've just been waiting patiently for you to reveal your inspiration. Brilliant!

[savarin]

This is going to be a beaut.
I cant believe you have moved over to the dark side though. :evilgrin: steel :evilgrin:

[Odd Man Out]

This is going to be a beaut.
I cant believe you have moved over to the dark side though. :evilgrin: steel :evilgrin:

It's NOT steel -- it's ChroMoly (and I am falling in love with her...)

[savarin]

Where can I get one of those very sharp tools?
You know, the hair splitter:jester::jester:

[PeterT]

Bunnings have hairsplitters for $5.95 :jester:

[SirJoey]

Where can I get one of those very sharp tools?
You know, the hair splitter:jester::jester:Yeah, I'd like to have one of those myself! :laugh3:


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[Odd Man Out]

I got a front wheel done so I set up things again to see if my CAD program tracks with real world results;
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3505/3966864575_b129b9546d_b.jpg

Yippy!!! it does. This means that I will use the CAD program to figure out the exact angles to cut and bend and weld things at. Also to be honest I set things up and took the pict to dream forward a bit.

Here is a closer view of the completed front wheel;

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2648/3967641014_623bb6b430.jpg

I am using 451 x 20 inch tires that are 1.125 wide that are to be inflated from 85 to 115 psi. Sure hope my suspension idea works!!!

P.S. I think the red nipples gives it a touch o bling.

[trikeman]

Nice. I'm not sure if that tube is shown actual size, but it sure looks smaller than 1.5". Is it just an illusion?

I am having the same problem as you on the really thin Chromo. If I go above 1.5" I can't find anyone that has it in anything thinner than 0.049." At some point it just isn't worth it to me to spend the extra $$ on the Chromo, but I am not sure where that point is.

[Danner]

The red nipples totally set off the Hope hubs. Man I love your sense for design! Curves and color - looking forward to see this come together.

[PeterT]

At some point it just isn't worth it to me to spend the extra $$ on the Chromo, but I am not sure where that point is.

Could that point be where steel is mis-spelt "chromo"? :jester: :rolleyes4:

PeterT

[Odd Man Out]

Nice. I'm not sure if that tube is shown actual size, but it sure looks smaller than 1.5". Is it just an illusion?

It is smaller -- it is 1 inch > talk about slicin thru da air!!!

[Odd Man Out]

Could that point be where steel is mis-spelt "chromo"? :jester: :rolleyes4:

PeterT

PT
Check out Chromo's tensile strength as compared to it's lesser cousin --
enlightenment starts with education.
:rockon:

[PeterT]

edumecazion? Isnt that what you get when you flunk skool? :1eye:

Don't mind me OMO, I look forward to the time when I can afford higher quality materials

PeterT

[graucho]

Thanks for sharing. This is very exciting watching it come along!

[Odd Man Out]

This really is not an update since I am just showing the disc rotors that just arrived. Most happy with them. They are manufactured by the same company I got the hubs from so there are no compatibility issues. I decided to go with 203mm. I will stop when needed!!! :punk:
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2517/4008965438_66dfec240e.jpg
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2423/4008198963_5f428c1952.jpg
One thing for sure is that I will never be able to feel secure in leaving the trike alone... It has too much bling
More to come -- in fact a teaser;
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2581/4008229871_fd9d5d9201_m.jpg

What do you think I am going to make out of this 2.75 x 6 inch piece of 7075 aluminum????

[savarin]

Those wheels are nothing short of awesome.
I think your going to turn a floggle toggle for the dingle sproke, you know, the the one that fits in to the thingammebob.

[badcheese]

What do you think I am going to make out of this 2.75 x 6 inch piece of 7075 aluminum????

That's easy! A beer can!

[Danner]

I was going to say a neck rest, but I thought that was silly.

[Racer46]

I was going to guess head tubes but then I remembered that you were building these out of CroMo. So now I’m thinking idler pulleys.

[jimFPU]

Bad Cheese has had good luck guessing things before...I'm with him!

[Odd Man Out]

Racer came closest. They are actually what fits inside the headtube -- stage one is complete;
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2432/4010928515_27e73c21d9.jpg
I have access to a lathe with a digital readout so these puppies are within .0005 of where they need to be. The next step is to put them in the CNC Mill and take off the remaining 80 percent of the materiel as shown in the picture below:
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2495/4011694472_cedfdf57e6_o.jpg

Don't try to get the correct angle from the picture -- it is intentionally wrong to make sure that you need to buy the plans to make this wonderful design...


So the answer to the tease is -- one piece integrated aluminum kingpins.

More to follow.

[Danner]

They're going to be gorgeous. Nice idea!

[Odd Man Out]

I got the ChroMoly tubes bent and cut. I have the frame set in a holder that I tried to erase with Photoshop. My skills in that area need major improvements:

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3498/4026990223_6c9ef48322_b.jpg

I have the back part held on with a set of vice clamps. I am really pleased with the lines.

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2673/4027745918_8db09fda70.jpg

As I have said, I belong to a place called "Techshop" where I have access to all sorts of wonderful machinery that I would otherwise not have a chance in hell to get near. Another benefit is the expertise of the members that I get to draw from. I was told to cut the holes with something I had never heard of; a "anular cutter". OMG does that thing do a wonderful job or what!?!?!?!

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3500/4026991875_a892df0c4a.jpg

I have not touched the cut edge with anything --- sandpaper, a file, nothing. It was a perfect fit!

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3031/4026992515_5dc907b84d_b.jpg

I apologise for the massive picture but I am just blown away with the precision that the cutter produced. There is literally NO play at all, the 1 inch cutter cut exactly a one inch hole.

Finally another picture of the rear section;

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3536/4026993031_4b49a5b36e.jpg

It really is a graceful curve, or as my wife said; "That's sexy"

Next item on the agenda when I get the headtubes (ordered from novacycle) is the hardest part of all -- cutting the ends of the steering tubes. And, even though this will involve a compound/compound/compound angle cut, with the help a milling machine, geometry and another anular cutter, it will be a piece of cake. I already have it figured out.

More to come

[trikeman]

Beautiful fit-up. That should make one great looking machine.

[Danner]

It's a shame to even weld it!

[savarin]

that is already looking beautiful, the curves are very sweet.Its going to be a mind blowing build when finished.

[Odd Man Out]

Got the rear dropouts done. I cut four pieces of aluminum to size so I could put them inside the ChroMoly tube to support the factory OEM dropouts I am using. I decided to go with the dropouts instead of making my own because of the specific hubs I plan to use;
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2492/4033424561_056c5edc62_m.jpg
Once again the knowledgeable people at Techshop came to my rescue and told me about LocTite 638 -- glue that is specifically formulated for the bonding of metals inside tubes -- who wooda known!?!
After I got the aluminum plug glued and set (another neat idea I was given after I did this is that I could have made the aluminum plugs a touch bigger, then put them in the freezer overnight and then stuck them in. They actually would have shrunk some from the cold...
But I digress -- I then milled out a chunk from each leg and drilled two holes in the plug;
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2487/4033424865_0ffe32525e.jpg
I made sure that the dropouts are flush with the inside of the legs;
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2758/4034179080_abea681be0.jpg
You can see the dropouts at the bottom of the picture. I used a CNC mill to cut the pocket. The great thing about this machine is that I am able to cut exactly what I need precisely -- the next pict shows one of the dropouts in the pocket;
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2796/4034179232_a610c79e49.jpg
Finally a picture of both dropouts;
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2698/4034179410_a27f022620.jpg
I ordered the hubs that fit these yesterday -- two from der Vaterland.

Until complete -- more to come.

[Danner]

I had to check out this Techshop thing. Looks fantastic. Too bad there's only 3 locations, in California and Oregon. So OMO, use it well and keep us posted!

[jimFPU]

You are truly a master craftsman OMO. Very nice, especially with no silly weld build up...

[wiretie]

That thing is going to be awesome. Have you been keeping track of your hours? I'm just curious.

[Odd Man Out]

That thing is going to be awesome. Have you been keeping track of your hours? I'm just curious.

Sorry for the oh so not quick response... I have not been keeping track. I am in no hurry -- my goal is to have these ready by next spring. I really enjoy the process of building so the time spent creating isn't noticed, it's almost cathartic.

[SirJoey]

Exceptionally nice work!
Do you do your own milling & lathe work, or do you contract it out?


http://img3.imageshack.us/img3/49/signaturehalloween.jpg

[trikeman]

I think he uses the ones at Techshop. I sure wish they had a few of those around here. I'm glad for the rest of us that Brad is relatively immune to that sort of thing.

[Odd Man Out]

Exceptionally nice work!
Do you do your own milling & lathe work, or do you contract it out?


I do do my own milling and lathe work since I have become a member of shoptech. Prior to that the closest I have come to manipulating ferrous metals was when I ate with a knife fork and spoon...

[wiretie]

This shoptech place sounds pretty cool. I've got a lathe and a small milling machine but I still haven't been able to find the paralell port to plug the computer into LOL. How much is membership? Are they planning on Expanding their operation to other parts of the country?
-Briggs

[Odd Man Out]

I think he uses the ones at Techshop. I sure wish they had a few of those around here. I'm glad for the rest of us that Brad is relatively immune to that sort of thing.

I do. Techshop is more of a concept than anything else. It is one that could be implemented anywhere. Apparantly all one needs is a vision and funding. With the economy as it is, it seems easy to appeal to those people and businesses that have suffered in the downturn to let other people use equipment that is no longer being used. This gives them a tax writeoff. All a person needs is a big empty warehouse space with adequate power supply and to get the word out. From what I hear it was hit or miss in the first couple of months due to the small revenue from the beginning membership but now it is a secure venture with a well known business looking into investing. If interested in creating a Techshop in your own area (and who would not want that???) get in touch with Denny Lane at the Portland Techshop (number and email is on the website). He is the guy that started the who thing and is the best guy to give you info as to how to get the ball rolling.

[fultondp]

Techshop sounds very cool!

I had a similar idea years ago for a woodshop for grownups that didn't have room for their own shop. I thought it would run basically like a gym membership, with monthly membership dues paying for time on the equipment. Raw materials and kits would be available for sale to the members. There would also have been classes (lathe turning, dovetails, etc, etc).

The straw that killed the deal from doing it was liability insurance. Gym's pay a huge amount for insurance. The underwriters heard the words "power tools" and basically priced it out of sight. Too bad, I still think it would be a great idea.

Darren

[trikeman]

There used to be places like that where you could go and work on your car. They had lifts, bays and tools. Not sure if they still exist, but I live in a backwater as far as some things are concerned.

[jimFPU]

If you were ever in the military (or still are) find a base near you with an auto hobby shop, or wood shop...too bad I'm too far from one, I'd use some of those bennies.

[savarin]

Our tertiary education colleges used to offer those kind of classes at a price that was ok. Now the bean counters and insurance liabilities have priced those same courses completely out of sight so no one enrolls. All that equipment laying idle for 4/5ths of the year. Its sick.

[imamedik]

Our tertiary education colleges used to offer those kind of classes at a price that was ok. Now the bean counters and insurance liabilities have priced those same courses completely out of sight so no one enrolls. All that equipment laying idle for 4/5ths of the year. Its sick.

You are sooo right about the college's tuition costs, I looked into taking a basic welding class so I could build some of the projects on this site, they wanted just under a grand. I decided to buy a cheap welder and teach myself like many others on this site. Now I'm building the Warrior.:)

[Odd Man Out]

I am asking for your help.

I have had the bright idea (since I am trying my best to build this beast as "precise" as possible) to try and get the balance on the trikes down perfectly. Since I made the crossboom so it will slide up and down the frame before welding, I can put each wheel on a scale and determine what needs to be where, mark it and weld it in place. The pictures show kind of what I am thinking about doing;

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2770/4054457412_12688cb718.jpg

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2637/4054457096_312b349e1d_b.jpg

My problem is that I can't find a definitive answer as to what is the "best" proportion of weight on the front and back -- 50/50? 60/40? 55/45? ???????

I figure that I should have a bit more weight on the rear wheel for traction and when I brake the weight (I think) transfers a bit to the front so if I did strictly 50/50 if I were to brake hard I might slam the front chainring into the pavement. I do not know.

Help me out guys -- I need your wisdom. What do you suggest???

[trikeman]

Don't know the anwer to your question, but I have another one. Is there going to be another main tube - I only ask because you have fairly large cross tubes, but the main boom appears a lot smaller, even though it will be supporting more weight than each side arm will.

[Odd Man Out]

Don't know the anwer to your question, but I have another one. Is there going to be another main tube - I only ask because you have fairly large cross tubes, but the main boom appears a lot smaller, even though it will be supporting more weight than each side arm will.

Nope only the single 1 inch main tube -- ChroMo 72-95000 lb tensile strength...

Depending on where the crossbeam (as I call it) will be, it should be carrying at least 35-45 percent of the weight = no problem.

My only concern is with pedal sway when really crankin -- we shall see. You can be assured I will honestly report when all is said and done.

[trikeman]

Tensile strength is not what I am concerned about. I know you are building it out of Chromo (4130). Even plain old mild steel is probably strong enough not to rupture under normal bicycle rider weight, but frame flex tends to control tube sizes more in modern bicycle design than tensile strength does. That said, unless I am remembering wrong, Chromo doesn't have any more stiffness (modulus of elasticity) than mild steel, so that main tube is gonna flex just as much as if it were mild steel - it just won't break as easily.

Only time and riding will tell, I suppose, but the main point is that if that main tube is stiff enough, then you could make the cross beams at least that small too.

[Odd Man Out]

the main point is that if that main tube is stiff enough, then you could make the cross beams at least that small too.

Yup, coulda but then would not have been able to fit the main frame thru it as I wanted for design and aesthetic purposes.

[trikeman]

OK. It certainly is going to be a beautiful bike. Just thought I would ask before you get to much farther down the road. If it were me, I would probably have used the larger tube for the main frame member, as well. It will be an interesting experiment.

[savarin]

From what I understand the majority of the braking forces are from the front wheels and this is increased by inertia shifting weight forwards under braking as well.
A lot of tadpoles do not have rear brakes because of this inertial weight shift it is too easy to lock up the rear and slide out of control.
Static weight distribution between the front and rear wheels is more towards the front than rear.
The proportions of this weight distribution are also dependent upon seat height and center of gravity of the rider and machine. The lower the cog the less the inertial weight distribution contributes to bad handling.
It appears that the optimum weight distribution is 70% front 30% rear but nowhere can I find if this is with or without the rider on board.
Common sense (whatever that is) seems to point to the lowest cog you can get, 60-70% bias to the front wheels and no rear brake.
Personally I would weigh this with the rider on board and all gear on as a double check.
Just my $6.45 worth.

[trikeman]

OMO - After only 80+ posts, I finally understand your design objectives for this bike better. That small main tube has puzzled me for some time. I tend to look at everything with the eyes of an engineer and let the form follow the function. Pure aesthetics and show bikes are a whole different thing.

I hope the small diameter main tube works out, because it should be very light. If it proves not to be too flexy, all my future monotube bikes will be 1" chromo or less.

[Odd Man Out]

OMO - After only 80+ posts, I finally understand your design objectives for this bike better. That small main tube has puzzled me for some time. I tend to look at everything with the eyes of an engineer and let the form follow the function. Pure aesthetics and show bikes are a whole different thing.

I hope the small diameter main tube works out, because it should be very light. If it proves not to be too flexy, all my future monotube bikes will be 1" chromo or less.

I would not build a Meridian with 1 inch ChroMo. I am counting on some flex to add to cushioning along with my experimental suspension ideas. 1 inch ChroMo by itself would be too flexy but coupled with the 1.5 inch crossmember, it will even things out. I am building this thing as a daily runner (or DF duster that is), if it ends up as a rolling piece or art then that is a great bonus.

Since you are an engineer you will be heartened to read that I have put this design thru a basic FEA analysis via solidworks.

[trikeman]

Interestingly, the larger cross member will not reduce the bending stress seen by the main tube. In fact, the larger cross member will make the main tube stress more because the cross tube will be stiffer. Other than the amount of springiness the cross tube contributes, the main tube will not care how large the cross tube is (excuse the anthropomorphism).

You can always draw a free body diagram of any structure and slice and dice it anyway you want to. When you do, the sum off all the forces still have to add up. This is the basis of Finite Element Analysis (FEA) analysis and how such programs are built Once you cut the cross arms off in the analysis, what you are left with is the two vertical forces equaling the front weight distribution pushing up on the main tube from the wheels no matter how large or small the cross tube is.

The forces on the front part of the main boom from pedaling are of course also independent of the sizes of the cross arms. Your main boom is definitely smaller than the mono-tube Chromo booms on most commercial bikes, but that doesn't mean it won't work. A P-38 and the Cruzbikes have a relatively small front boom, but it is also triangulated.

What did your FEA say about the amount of flex your frame is going to undergo?

My very crude and not-to-scale starting FBD:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/smyrna5/4055560994/

[trikeman]

Im not sure why my picture link didn't work, so here is the link:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/smyrna5/4055560994/sizes/o/

Much of this may be irrelevant if you are not a hammerhead. As I said a few posts ago, I don't think your Warrior will break, and your FEA analysis apparently confirms that, but it will definitely have a very "plush" suspension. I rather enjoy the soft passive suspension on my Wave. IMO, most of Brad's designs are massively overbuilt, so there is always room for some tweaking by the more adventurous souls. It will be interesting to read your ride report.

[PeterT]

I am asking for your help.

I have had the bright idea (since I am trying my best to build this beast as "precise" as possible) to try and get the balance on the trikes down perfectly. Since I made the crossboom so it will slide up and down the frame before welding, I can put each wheel on a scale and determine what needs to be where, mark it and weld it in place. The pictures show kind of what I am thinking about doing;

My problem is that I can't find a definitive answer as to what is the "best" proportion of weight on the front and back -- 50/50? 60/40? 55/45? ???????

I figure that I should have a bit more weight on the rear wheel for traction and when I brake the weight (I think) transfers a bit to the front so if I did strictly 50/50 if I were to brake hard I might slam the front chainring into the pavement. I do not know.

Help me out guys -- I need your wisdom. What do you suggest???

OMO,

All I can give as the answer, is this.

As I was asking the Lord what specs should I work out the braking/weight balance on my Streetfighter (The Fast Recumbent Quad F-RQ), I was given 55/45 rear/front.

If in doubt ask Him, He already knows the answers, He is just waiting for us to humble ourself and ask Him for the answer.

Bless Ya Heaps
PeterT

[Odd Man Out]

Thank you PeterT for the simple honest encouragement without fault finding -- and thank you for the weight distribution idea. I sometimes forget to take the small things to Him.

[trikeman]

OMO,

If in doubt ask Him, He already knows the answers, He is just waiting for us to humble ourself and ask Him for the answer.

Bless Ya Heaps
PeterT

Yep. He is undoubtedly reading and chuckling at the discussion of the 1" main tube as well, and will probably weigh in on it when he has had enough fun listening to us. :juggle2:

BTW OMO - I hope you are not taking my comments as discouragement or an attack. You are definitely a master builder as you creations show. I am just always interested in learning and discussing more about bike design, and I tend to be a weight weenie to some degree. So.. the minimum size tube is of great interest to me.

[Odd Man Out]

What did your FEA say about the amount of flex your frame is going to undergo?

It said; "under the normal riding conditions that you are going to subject the Spartan and Hoplite to, you will have no problems. If you going going to hand them over to a teenager to ride or take them off road then may I suggest that you beef things up."

My FEA is very polite...

[PeterT]

Thank you PeterT for the simple honest encouragement without fault finding -- and thank you for the weight distribution idea. I sometimes forget to take the small things to Him.

OMO, it is the small stuff He wants us to talk to Him about, cos it is all small stuff to him!

Bless Ya Heaps
PeterT

[trikeman]

It said; "under the normal riding conditions that you are going to subject the Spartan and Hoplite to, you will have no problems. If you going going to hand them over to a teenager to ride or take them off road then may I suggest that you beef things up."

My FEA is very polite...


ROFL.

I will relate an interesting story (to me anyway) that I always recall from my college days. I took a course called "Vibrations" in the mechanical engineering school. I remember very little about it, since I had more important things on my mind in college [g], and have never needed any of it on the job. Anyway, the course was mostly about designing things like crankshafts and other moving parts so they didn't vibrate themselves to death.

The instructor was very fond of telling us about his days on the design team the P-51 aircraft. He would work through all the equations and theory to get a design, then at the end he would always add what seemed to me like an arbitrary 'safety factor." I tended to be more of a theoretical type, so I always asked him where he got that number. "Experience with building and testing the designs is where we get em," he said. I never liked that answer, but I accept the wisdom of it.

[wiretie]

I read an interesting article about gary fisher and the early days of mountain biking. In the article they talked about how they put beach cruiser tires on a lugged frame ten speed, hauled it to the top of some mountain in california and away they went. Gary figured out a couple of things, 1. this was a lot of fun. 2 He could build his road bikes a lot lighter. Well my dad is an architect and he has told me that engineers usually design things to a failure factor of seven times. That said I had a Cannondale frame crack on a test ride from a bike shop once!

[Freth]

I built a LWB lowracer using 1-1/8" chromo main tube (0.039 thickness). Way too much flex and problems with 225 lbs. of me. I had to add supporting trusses and gussets. Even so, it still has a lot of flex. My next one like that will be 1-1/2" chromo main tube (0.049 Thickness) ... without trusses. It was a case of build it, ride it, learn, and modify it. Have fun and tell us how it works out!! :cheesy:

[trikeman]

I built a LWB lowracer using 1-1/8" chromo main tube (0.039 thickness). Way too much flex and problems with 225 lbs. of me. I had to add supporting trusses and gussets. Even so, it still has a lot of flex. My next one like that will be 1-1/2" chromo main tube (0.049 Thickness) ... without trusses. It was a case of build it, ride it, learn, and modify it. Have fun and tell us how it works out!! :cheesy:


Freth - for a LWB monotube, I would not go lower than a 2" chromo tube. The Javelin has a 2" main tube and seems to still get criticized for having too much flex. I don't know what thickness it is, but I suspect its between 0.049 and 0.035. I would consider a 1.5" or less main tube on a LWB as long as it had some triangulation below it like the older RANS F5 ( a SWB) or Brad's Arcturus frame does.

OMO may get away with a smaller tube on the SWB trike, since his load points are probably half as far apart as the LWB Javelin's, and he isn't a hammerhead (except maybe when he is passing DFs on his VRex. His ride report will be read with interest.

[Odd Man Out]

I built a LWB lowracer using 1-1/8" chromo main tube (0.039 thickness). Way too much flex and problems with 225 lbs. of me. I had to add supporting trusses and gussets. Even so, it still has a lot of flex. My next one like that will be 1-1/2" chromo main tube (0.049 Thickness) ... without trusses. It was a case of build it, ride it, learn, and modify it. Have fun and tell us how it works out!! :cheesy:

Interesting that you mention 1.5 x .049...
I just ordered two 6 foot sections to redo the main frame -- not because of flex issues but because I need more material to weld the bottom bracket onto (I know Trikeman, get up off the floor will ya). I am going to use a Schlumpf speed drive and by itself it it increases the torque on the front boom when you are in overdrive mode. I did not figure this into the Solidworks FEA. I did this last night and the whole area around the weld shows as red -- not good. Increasing the tubing to 1.5 and things show as green and blue = very good. I am changing from 1 inch .065 to 1.5 inch .049. The wieght difference will be an addition of 2.4 pounds. I guess I will live with that and not have the bottom bracket come off sometime in the future. This also forces me to redesign how the rear end connects -- already got that figured out.
P.S. Hubs arrived today -- will post picts tomorrow. :punk:

[trikeman]

Well darn - there goes a grand experiment. Now, we may never know unless I decide to build a 1" maintube Warrior from EMT (Chromo is too expensive for destructive testing) and see if it folds up on me like a wet noodle [g].

On a more serious note OMO - is the 1.5" tube gonna go through your 2" cross tube still, so you can keep your cool looking design?

[Odd Man Out]

On a more serious note OMO - is the 1.5" tube gonna go through your 2" cross tube still, so you can keep your cool looking design?

Nope -- it's going to rest in a notch on the cross member. I am going to try to cut the notch as deep as possible so the two 1.5 inch tubes won't seem to be too disrupted (if that makes sense).

[trikeman]

Makes sense to me.

[Danner]

I say let's put it to a vote...All in favor of keeping the original design ... ( I just want to have another look at the work from that awesome annular cutter) :stooge_moe:

[Odd Man Out]

I say let's put it to a vote...All in favor of keeping the original design ... ( I just want to have another look at the work from that awesome annular cutter) :stooge_moe:

No worries Danner -- you will see the results from a 1 7/16 and a 1.5 inch annular cutter in the future...
For your viewing entertainment may I introduce you to the newest member of my useful gadget collection, the 1 7/16th annular cutter:

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2653/4061720590_b484272283.jpg

I am going to use this to cut the precise angles needed for the headtubes.

[Odd Man Out]

The two Rohloff hubs arrived and I got them laced up. Gotta say the rims are just beautiful:
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2797/4076735472_1285d9165d.jpg
The rims and tires flow together so it is hard to see at first glance where the rims end and the tires begin. Here is a shot without flash;
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2789/4076734126_4128af1feb.jpg
And here is a shot with flash -- The tires have a reflective line around them that really reflects light well;
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2671/4076734850_c03bbf71cc.jpg

My first impression of the Rohloff hubs was a pleasant surprise -- They were not as heavy or as large as I thought they were going to be -- very cool. Now if only the two Schlumpf Speed Drives would arrive...

[Danner]

That cutter is a thing of beauty.

[jimFPU]

So OMO, how are these seats? And how are the builds coming? I tried to find the link to the seats, but it appears to be gone...any idea where to get some more?

[Odd Man Out]

So OMO, how are these seats? And how are the builds coming? I tried to find the link to the seats, but it appears to be gone...any idea where to get some more?

Here is a link to the builder -- the URL is for a size small but correspond with Marcin -- he is really good at returning emails. He will build to order -- he is now doing carbon fiber seats too.

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Recumbent-bike-seat-size-S_W0QQitemZ320485485117QQcmdZViewItemQQptZUK_sport sleisure_cycling_bikeparts_SR?hash=item4a9e6c6a3d

Alas I am not using the seats I bought -- they will be for a future project. I ended up with a pair of these: http://cgi.ebay.de/Recumbent-bike-Complete-offer-seat-seatmat-headrest_W0QQitemZ260517494998QQcmdZViewItemQQptZA U_Sport_Cycling_Parts?hash=item3ca80d80d6 They are lighter and hopefully more comfortable.

Finally alas and alack -- my beloved Techshop Portland has folded due to a lack of business sense by its founder. Ended up oweing two months rent and all tenents had 7 days in which to remove their stuff. It was quite chaotic. I am now in withdrawals -- I played with lathes, mills, cnc mills and other fun machines -- now I am back to my garage with my limited equipment. My two Warriors need the high tech tools to be able to complete them sooooo they are kinda on hold for the time being. It is really a sore point since I have all the high end parts (Rohloff rear hub, Schlumph front hub, avid BB7's, Velocity Rims, Schwalbe tires) sitting ready to go. I guess I could farm out the CNC work but you talk about expensive (I know, you can call me a hypocrite...) I kinda blew my wad on the parts. Oh well, stay tuned. I am determined to finish these beauties.

[vrooom3440]

Just have to make a road trip down to Menlo Park... $50 for a day visit. Map it all out and jam. Sounds a lot cheaper than paying for machinist time :yes: