Square Alum tubing

[cncman333]

Has anyone here had any experience building a trike frame with square alum tubing rather than steel? I found this bolted version,
http://mysite.verizon.net/boltedtrike/
but I am thinking something sleeker and welded with solid alum gussets and joiners. Any advice?

[TheKid]

Odd Man Out (OMO) made several aluminum DW's, but he welded his. I think there are a few other aluminum bikes in these forums.
The trike in your link is nice, with a lot of nice features, but I fail to see why he decided to use aluminum. it's a lot more expensive than steel, and the way it was built, it's probably heavier than a welded steel trike.
If you want to build a vehicle out of aluminum, OMO's posts are highly recommended for good advice, as are other aluminum builders on the Net.
If you're unable to use a welder because of where you live, you could always cut the tubes and have them welded in a shop. If you're not confident about learning to weld, most of us here had never welded before, but found out how relatively easy it is to learn. The same goes for wheel building, and a host of other aspects of bike building. There's plenty of info here, and no shortage of friends willing and eager to help.

[cncman333]

Thanks so much for the encouraging words! It is good to know that a nood can get good friendly help here!

I am planning on welding, well I plan on having it welded, I know a guy who welds aluminum like he is waving a wand! He does mold repairs for our shop and I would rather make the parts and have him do his magic then even pretend to be as good as he is!

I will check OMO's posts, thanks again.

[trikeman]

As TheKid as said, OddManOut has done several frames in aluminum. I am sure he will be along later to extol its virtues and how he does it.

That said, to weld aluminum you will need either a TIG capable of welding aluminum, or an oxy-acetylene or oxy-hydrogen torch, tanks and regulators. The former will probably set you back over $1,000, and the latter probably somewhere north of $600. I built my oxy-acetylene set up by patiently watching eBay and Craigslist for cheap torches, regulators, and tanks. In the end it still cost me somewhere near $400 - $500, or perhaps a bit more. I haven't even tried aluminum yet, since you need a special lens to weld it, which I don't yet have. Unfortunately, the $10 goggle set you use to weld and braze steel with gas won't cut out the orange flare you get from aluminum flux used to gas weld it. I just haven't been able to force myself into buying a $125 small piece of glass yet.

Many of the guys here have built steel framed machines using $100 or less arc or wire feed welders, either used or new from Harbor Freight. I've got one of each of those too, since both welders and bike building can be a disease leading to having to have another one. Obviously, this is the cheapest way to enter. The weight savings is probably less than 5 pounds to go aluminum, and its a bit harder to learn the skills necessary to weld it well. It is cool to have a non-rusting frame though.

We were posting at the same time, but I see that you already have a weldor (the person not the machine) lined up, you should not have any trouble going that route, but should you ever want to do it yourself .....

[cncman333]

Thanks for the info Trikeman. I am surprised to hear that there is only a 5 pound savings by going to alum. How much does a steel Streetfox frame weigh?

[trikeman]

Thanks for the info Trikeman. I am surprised to hear that there is only a 5 pound savings by going to alum. How much does a steel Streetfox frame weigh?

I don't know exactly how much metal is in a StreetFox, but I know my DW used about 10 feet of 1.5" square 1/16" gauge steel. That weighs 12 pounds. If you built that same bike with aluminum you would need to use thicker tube, probably about 1/8" thick because aluminum is weaker than steel.

Fortunately, aluminum is also about 1/3 the weight of steel, so the final weight of 10 feet of aluminum is 2/3 of 12 pounds, or 8 pounds vs 12 pounds.

There may not be as much as 10 feet of tubing in the StreetFox, so you might not save as much as 4 pounds, but you get the idea.

[cncman333]

So the 40 some pounds of a trike is mostly wheels and componets? Oiy! Oh well, I would still like to build in Aluminum just because I can and it will be a different build. I just need to make sure that it does not get so challenging as to make it an unfinishable project.... not that I have EVER not finished a project.... <whistling innocently>

[trikeman]

So the 40 some pounds of a trike is mostly wheels and componets? Oiy! Oh well, I would still like to build in Aluminum just because I can and it will be a different build. I just need to make sure that it does not get so challenging as to make it an unfinishable project.... not that I have EVER not finished a project.... <whistling innocently>

Yep. Frame, seat, wheels, tires, brakes, chain, sprockets, derailers, axles, steering controls, stems and risers, handlebars, pulleys and probably a few more things I left off. If you replace all those parts with high end (and light) parts and go to an aluminum frame you can get the weight down to maybe 31 pounds like a Greenspeed.

I'm not trying to discourage you from going to aluminum. One day I am sure I will weld one up just because its a cool material.

[macka]

You can buy a spool gun from Lincoln that is the felines rear end for MIG'ing AL. You need to have a good power source to run this, but it is a lot cheaper then a TIG rig. Its also not as flexy as a TIG weld, and needs to be relieved (heat treated and slow cooled by a pro)before you load and stress the frame, or you will be back to square one (parts o' bike) in short order. TIG welding also doesn't get as hot as AL MIG.

[trikeman]

Macka is right you can also MIG aluminum. Not sure how I left that one out. Some people say you can even do it with just a teflon liner and some aluminum wire for your MIG and keep the gun lead very straight. The spool gun is the best way to go with MIG AL though. Of course you will also need a cylinder of Argon to do it.

[John Lewis]

Don't forget you really need to use 6061T6 or similar tempered aluminum and after it is welded it will need solution heat treating by a specialist shop to regain the temper and be safe to use.

John Lewis

[cncman333]

Well I can see why it is easier to lean toward building in steel! But I still have to say that an all alumium frame with a nice consistent scotchbrited matte finish will look really cool! :)

[fultondp]

Well I can see why it is easier to lean toward building in steel! But I still have to say that an all alumium frame with a nice consistent scotchbrited matte finish will look really cool! :)

I was at a bike show this last weekend and ran into an old frame builder I had met years ago. He had graduated from making aluminum frames to titanium since I had seen him last. I asked why the switch, and he told me the returns on aluminum frames were killing him, the failure rate was just too high. For the money and effort it took to do aluminum, he was better off going to Ti.

"There are old frames, and there are aluminum frames, but there are no old aluminum frames."

Darren

[cncman333]

"No old aluminum frames"...... ouch! hmmm maybe a hybrid frame with a steel boom and cross member...... No worries, I am still at the drawing board stage and have not finalized what plan I am following yet. :) Man you gotta love a good active message board to get lots of info from! :)

[trikeman]

I was at a bike show this last weekend and ran into an old frame builder I had met years ago. He had graduated from making aluminum frames to titanium since I had seen him last. I asked why the switch, and he told me the returns on aluminum frames were killing him, the failure rate was just too high. For the money and effort it took to do aluminum, he was better off going to Ti.

"There are old frames, and there are aluminum frames, but there are no old aluminum frames."


Darren

OMO is gonna get you for that [g]

[cncman333]

My number is 333, as the button says - Only half Evil :)

[fultondp]

OMO is gonna get you for that [g]

It's just my way of poking at those with better skills...or better tools...or both.

"If you can't beat 'em, CRITICIZE!"

Seriously, if you don't know what your doing, aluminum is best avoided. See Brad's recent aluminum fork failure postings. Steel and family tend to fail slowly with warning bends or cracks and "strange noises". Aluminum just the opposite, quickly and without warning. Even without welding, bolted parts can shear or bolts can pull through. Aluminum doesn't like constant flexing, which is why the "no old aluminum frames" quote. Aluminum frames have a finite "flex" lifespan, and when they go, they don't tell you first.

At the bike show last weekend, there was a guy selling MAGNESIUM frames! Pure bike porn, very light. How do you weld Magnesium? Doesn't magnesium catch FIRE! :eek:

Darren

[macka]

"No old aluminum frames"...... ouch! hmmm maybe a hybrid frame with a steel boom and cross member...... No worries, I am still at the drawing board stage and have not finalized what plan I am following yet. :) Man you gotta love a good active message board to get lots of info from! :)

The pita about using mixed metal frames is that only certain metals are happy together. Steel and aluminum are not happy together.

[Odd Man Out]

Howdy all
I am back from a weeks vacation
Wow the "evil metal" has raised it's ugly head again...
For those that do not know me, I call myself "odd man out" because I mainly build out of that evil metal. I am not bigoted towards it -- in fact I really like the stuff.

Couple o things
1. If you can't TIG WELLdon't touch aluminum
2. If you don't have your frame professional heat treated after welding, don't touch aluminum
3. If you can achieve 1 and 2 above then I highly recommend AL as a frame materiel

There are those out there that blindly reject AL as a frame material citing metal fatigue, the incident with Brad's fork and the high rate of repairs on AL frames. Then there was that oh so sage advice something about metal frames. Well, let's shed a bit o logic on each;
1. Yup AL can suffer from metal fatigue -- if it were such a horrible lurking danger then why Walmart and others not pulled all their cheap AL framed bikes off the market? Maybe they have been secretly buying off all the mothers of those poor innocents that have had crippling accidents when their frames auto destructed -- doubt it. Really, do you think that the plethora of AL framed bikes would be sold if the danger was real???
2. Brad's accident is cited as proof of the problem with AL. Brad ran full force into a curb. Don't think that would be good for any fork. Also if you go on the Cristalyte website they say specifically to use a really robust fork for a hubmotor. So Brad was stressing the fork in a non recommended manner AND rammed it into a curb at high speed. Any guess what would happen???
3. Finally there was a comment made about the high repair rate of AL frames -- no mention was made as to what type frames -- BMX maybe. These frames aree putt in some high impact stresses.

It really does not matter to me. I build AL frames. I ride them. If they last "only" 25 years I guess I can live with that. I guess I will just have to build a new one when I turn 81. No biggy.

P.S. My next project -- the warrior trike -- will be a mix of ChroMoly and AL.

P.P.S. If I can help anyone with questions about that evil metal -- just ask -- I am more than happy to do so.

PEACE

[cncman333]

Most kind greetings Sir OMO, and welcome to the thread :)

I will not for a moment pretend that I know anything about how to weld aluminum. But I know how to build in aluminium, and I know a welding wizard that owes me some favors. :)

My thought was to build straight sections in rectangular tube and join each tubular section with a billet elbow that would blend to the outside size of the tube and have an inner protrusion that fit tight inside the tube. The edges would be chamfered and filled with weld then machined and polished to look like a smooth outside surface. The billet joiners can be hollowed out for weight and would allow a nice flowing look to the frame.

I know I can build a strong frame, but I may well be back up close to the weight of but welded steel. I am not trying to build super light, I might have been motivated to do so back in the days when I was super light :), but now days I am just looking for a cool ride that is comfy and one of a kind.

OMO, where can I see pics of the aluminum frames you have built?

[trikeman]

The pita about using mixed metal frames is that only certain metals are happy together. Steel and aluminum are not happy together.

Hey - put a wire on each dissimilar metal frame member and use it to charge your cell phone :jester:

[Odd Man Out]

Most kind greetings Sir OMO, and welcome to the thread :)

Now days I am just looking for a cool ride that is comfy and one of a kind.

OMO, where can I see pics of the aluminum frames you have built?


Thanks for the welcome --
I just woke up so here is my stream of consciousness answer...
I put a couple of extra gussets on the frame "just to be sure" and I also think they enhance the looks a bit. If you are comfortable with you plans then I say go for it, otherwise just have it welded by your professional friend. Also if you are going for "comfort" know that some people say that AL frames provide a more stiffer unforgiving ride than ChroMo or steel..
Finally, here you go -- they are not the best
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3029/3254513384_50203b71cb_b.jpg
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3403/3254513354_bcc5284cab_b.jpg
Finally finally I have to restate that you MUST heat treat the frames or else you are really gambling, no I take that back. You are guaranteed a nasty surprise in the future -- one you will not like. Get em heat treated -- and make sure they drop em in Glycol and not water. If they drop the frames in water you will end up with pretzels.
Here to help

[fultondp]

Howdy all
I am back from a weeks vacation
Wow the "evil metal" has raised it's ugly head again...
For those that do not know me, I call myself "odd man out" because I mainly build out of that evil metal. I am not bigoted towards it -- in fact I really like the stuff.

Couple o things
1. If you can't TIG WELLdon't touch aluminum
2. If you don't have your frame professional heat treated after welding, don't touch aluminum
3. If you can achieve 1 and 2 above then I highly recommend AL as a frame materiel

There are those out there that blindly reject AL as a frame material citing metal fatigue, the incident with Brad's fork and the high rate of repairs on AL frames. Then there was that oh so sage advice something about metal frames. Well, let's shed a bit o logic on each;
1. Yup AL can suffer from metal fatigue -- if it were such a horrible lurking danger then why Walmart and others not pulled all their cheap AL framed bikes off the market? Maybe they have been secretly buying off all the mothers of those poor innocents that have had crippling accidents when their frames auto destructed -- doubt it. Really, do you think that the plethora of AL framed bikes would be sold if the danger was real???
2. Brad's accident is cited as proof of the problem with AL. Brad ran full force into a curb. Don't think that would be good for any fork. Also if you go on the Cristalyte website they say specifically to use a really robust fork for a hubmotor. So Brad was stressing the fork in a non recommended manner AND rammed it into a curb at high speed. Any guess what would happen???
3. Finally there was a comment made about the high repair rate of AL frames -- no mention was made as to what type frames -- BMX maybe. These frames aree putt in some high impact stresses.

It really does not matter to me. I build AL frames. I ride them. If they last "only" 25 years I guess I can live with that. I guess I will just have to build a new one when I turn 81. No biggy.

P.S. My next project -- the warrior trike -- will be a mix of ChroMoly and AL.

P.P.S. If I can help anyone with questions about that evil metal -- just ask -- I am more than happy to do so.

PEACE

Trikeman warned me I was going to be in trouble...:angel:

Not so much really, you reinforced my main argument, don't do aluminum unless you know what you are doing, and are equipped with the proper tools and techniques. I don't "blindly" reject aluminum, I've ridden aluminum frames and liked 'em. But building with it is a different story, especially for the home-built DIY crowd. The reason I don't like aluminum frames is not that they fail, all frames can fail, but in the way they fail. I've been on an aluminum frame when it failed, and didn't like the road-rash. I've also been on steel frames that failed, and they will creak and groan (like me!) for a while before total collapse, and I appreciate the warning. Brad's fork example illustrates my point, no doubt he was abusing it, and no doubt a steel fork would have also failed, but I expect a steel fork would have bent, not broken, and that can mean a big difference to the rider. You still end up walking home, but without the limp, or maybe a concussion, some bleeding, etc, etc.

Those WallyWorld aluminum frames are just smoke to get John-Q public to pay $250 for a $100 component package. they use really thick tubing, and they don't weigh any less than the steel bike next door. They also use factory robotic welders, so no comparison to home builts apply.

In the case of my frame builder compatriot, he builds high-end road and time-trial racing frames, but is not selling to racers, but to John-Q public. When a racer cracks a frame, they pull another one off the van and keep going. Well, when John-Q jumps a curb and the frame cracks, especially when he just paid a mountain of money for it, he takes it right back to the builder and demands an explanation. "Aluminum does that" isn't a good enough answer. So switching to Ti makes sense to me, for the market he is selling to.

So to wrap up, steel is heavy, aluminum is a snake, titanium is bike porn, and carbon fiber is both evil and expensive. (Now I'm in trouble...) :devil:

Darren

[Odd Man Out]

don't do aluminum unless you know what you are doing, and are equipped with the proper tools and techniques.

Those WallyWorld aluminum frames are just smoke to get John-Q public to pay $250 for a $100 component package. they use really thick tubing, and they don't weigh any less than the steel bike next door. They also use factory robotic welders, so no comparison to home builts apply.

In the case of my frame builder compatriot, he builds high-end road and time-trial racing frames,

So to wrap up, aluminum is a snake,
Darren

Darren
I definately agree with you on your first statement up there but I think that anyone can tame the skills and methods needed to DIY a AL frame. The reason I say so is because I am living proof. Before I hit this site I never touched metal to produce anything much less AL. Now after more than a dozen DW frames behind me I can confidently say that if I can do it, anyone can.

I jokingly call AL "that evil metal" because there are some out there who seem to have a blind prejudice against using AL.
"Aluminum is a snake" -- Educate but don't push agendas or push fear.

No comparison between wallyworld frames and ours? Both use heavy walled material (1/8th), really an AL frame only cuts a few pounds off and what's the diff between a robotic weld and a good TIG weld by someone who knows what they are doing? Your claim of "no comparison" is spurious at best.

You say that your friend builds high end road and time trial racing frames... here I think is where you can state that "no comparison to homebuilts apply". I think I am safe to assume that he does not use 1/8th inch thick AL tubing in his builds. If he did I don't think his customers would be returning.

The reason I write is to combat those that want to stifle creativity by pushing only the negatives of building with AL. I hope that one day someone will build a DW out of carbon fiber, titanium, heck bonded toilet tissue. I see this forum as a nurturing welcoming place for creative adventurers. A place to come and learn and expand and grow. As long as all sides of an issue are presented fairly -- our mission is complete.

Thanks for the repartee. My job here is done. :punk:Odd:punk:Man:punk:Out:punk:

[fultondp]

Darren
I definately agree with you on your first statement up there but I think that anyone can tame the skills and methods needed to DIY a AL frame. The reason I say so is because I am living proof. Before I hit this site I never touched metal to produce anything much less AL. Now after more than a dozen DW frames behind me I can confidently say that if I can do it, anyone can.

I jokingly call AL "that evil metal" because there are some out there who seem to have a blind prejudice against using AL.
"Aluminum is a snake" -- Educate but don't push agendas or push fear.

No comparison between wallyworld frames and ours? Both use heavy walled material (1/8th), really an AL frame only cuts a few pounds off and what's the diff between a robotic weld and a good TIG weld by someone who knows what they are doing? Your claim of "no comparison" is spurious at best.

You say that your friend builds high end road and time trial racing frames... here I think is where you can state that "no comparison to homebuilts apply". I think I am safe to assume that he does not use 1/8th inch thick AL tubing in his builds. If he did I don't think his customers would be returning.

The reason I write is to combat those that want to stifle creativity by pushing only the negatives of building with AL. I hope that one day someone will build a DW out of carbon fiber, titanium, heck bonded toilet tissue. I see this forum as a nurturing welcoming place for creative adventurers. A place to come and learn and expand and grow. As long as all sides of an issue are presented fairly -- our mission is complete.

Thanks for the repartee. My job here is done. :punk:Odd:punk:Man:punk:Out:punk:

Far be it from me to stifle creativity, I also want to tackle just about any and all materials. Mine is just a message of warning for those who dare to swim in deeper water. I call aluminum a snake because it is alluring, but can bite if you are not careful. Our positions would be switched if we were discussing carbon fiber, there are those that claim it can't be done at home, and I would be the one saying "Pish Posh, if I can do it, so can you". But I would also warn those that dare about the pitfalls as well. (Did I say evil and expensive? Yes, ask me how I know.)

Heck, for that matter, we are all here "OddMenOut". "Home-build you own bike, don't be rediculous! What a silly idea, it takes thousands of engineering hours and computers to make a decent bike! RECUMBENT, well you must be off your meds. Aluminum, sure why not. Carbon fiber, yeah, go for the gold! Bamboo, it's nature's carbon fiber! Titanium? hold up there, now you're just being stupid."

Now, if you happen to come across a sweet deal on a TIG welder, I'm your best friend!

Sorry cncman333, I've completely hijacked your thread.

Back to you.

Darren

[macka]

Most kind greetings Sir OMO, and welcome to the thread :)

I will not for a moment pretend that I know anything about how to weld aluminum. But I know how to build in aluminium, and I know a welding wizard that owes me some favors. :)

My thought was to build straight sections in rectangular tube and join each tubular section with a billet elbow that would blend to the outside size of the tube and have an inner protrusion that fit tight inside the tube. The edges would be chamfered and filled with weld then machined and polished to look like a smooth outside surface. The billet joiners can be hollowed out for weight and would allow a nice flowing look to the frame.

I know I can build a strong frame, but I may well be back up close to the weight of but welded steel. I am not trying to build super light, I might have been motivated to do so back in the days when I was super light :), but now days I am just looking for a cool ride that is comfy and one of a kind.

OMO, where can I see pics of the aluminum frames you have built?

I'm not sure if you know any mech engineers, but if you are going to machine a series of joining surfaces, you may want to go over the statics and strength of material factors with the mech engineer. The varying thicknesses of the joined surfaces may cause stress related failure at the tube ends. I know a lot of the high end frames have whats called double butted tubing, basically they are tubes that are thicker at the ends and thinner in the middle. This makes the frames last longer as the thicker metal can handle the stress better.

[ken will]

Here is an Aluminum fairing mount on an Aluminum Tadpole trike

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_ewdN-SacyzM/SSC5cfN-rVI/AAAAAAAABEI/_binHCdHBLA/s1600/fairing%2Bmouting%2Bbracket.JPG

[cncman333]

Wow, This thread has taken off! And no Darren there is no hijacking threads, only contributing and making them go in interesting directions! :)

OMO - I love the delta frame pics, nice work. You surely have a ton of valuable info on this subject... even if (and maybe especially if) it makes you the Odd Man Out!

I am trying to dig up some pics of some sport bike swing arms that I used to make parts for. We made a solid billet section, lightened it by drilling out the middle and milling relief pockets and match milled to the insides of the stock swing arms. The stock swing arms were cut and we would insert sections up to 12 inches long to extend the wheel base on drag bikes that had over 400 HP to the rear wheel. We made hundreds of these and only had one failure, and that was probably due to a crooked axel.

[macka]

do you know if they welded the sections together at the end points and included rosette welds to minimise flex? Were they restriction fit? I'm looking forward to seeing these pics.

[cncman333]

I have not been able to find pics and I am still waiting to hear from another source, but here are some links to bikes that have been done by the same person.
http://www.roaringtoyz.com/08%20JanBlk330GSXR/index.html
http://www.roaringtoyz.com/07JulyAlbums/CBRKING240/index.html

On the Honda you can see where the insert was added. The rest of the swingarm is hollow stock and the insert goes about 1.500 into the hollow. hundreds of HPs here, 0-170 in about 8secs in a 1/4 mile. I know this method stands up to abuse.