DW Rear Suspension

[Richie Rich]

On June 22, 2008, 'TheKid' wrote...

Actually, I came up with two for the DW when I first downloaded the plans. One was to pivot the entire rear on each side, with two shocks, but the math said I needed a either a very heavy frame, or the "rock and roll" type of third pivot to prevent twisting. I didn't think the third pivot would work, because the chain would also twist. Then I thought of just having the third pivot on the idle side, but it was getting too complicated. I came up with a second idea, described below. Bear in mind, either of these would have been my first build using steel and welding. So I decided instead to start with something easier, which was a tadpole I found before stumbling upon the AZ site. It wasn't long before I decided the steering was too complicated, and went to the DW as per the plans. Then I saw the wheel building part, and back I went to the tadpole, until the Meridian came along, and three days later, it was ridable. Then I fell off it and broke my leg, so a few months later, it was back to the tadpole.
The second idea was to split the rear in two, and basically do the same thing. I got that idea from that trike that climbs stairs. Another was to use two suspension rears using a double boom that went to a single boom in front of the seat. If I ever get around to building the quad I want to build, that's the method I'll use. Or I may just build it as a trike with a suspension fork. That will feature two SA 8 speed hubs on the rear for posi-traction on straight hills or slippery terrain, and the ability to switch to a lower gear on the inside wheel when making turns. It will make turning left onto my block a lot easier. As it is now with a delta or a quad, If I approach from the north, I make an uphill right turn very easily with the inside wheel freewheeling. However, from the south, it's a left uphill turn, with the drive wheel on the inside, making it very difficult, even in a very low gear.Yes, I remember well your tale of woe. I hope your leg has knitted well and won't prevent you from enjoying this crazy passtime.

My original plan for the DW was to use a conventional mountain bike spring and pivot under the rear frame just below the seat. I had mentioned this last year in the old Forums and Brad, being his usual minimalistic self, logically pointed out that it's much easier to suspend the seat than the frame.

But, I enjoy a challenge now and then, so I may give it a try on a mockup.
Thanks for sharing your ideas...

......Richie >>

[TheKid]

Hey it can't hurt. I actually enjoy making the designs and figuring out if they'd work. But if I start and it gets too complicated, or seems like it wouldn't be worth the trouble, I let it go. Usually, something comes up that I hadn't contemplated when the project was on paper. Before I was injured at age 51, it was never a problem. Up until that time I could build anything at work by myself faster than 2 guys doing the same thing. For the most part, I was building boat floats for a county owned marina. Most were 16' x 4' x 20", built with 4x12 lumber for the frame and bolted together with 3/4" bolts. I came up with a good system, but the guy who taught me how to build them was too set in his ways. Together, it took almost two days to build one float. One day, he called in sick, which was very rare for him, (He's one of those guys who amassed sick and vacation days to cash in at retirement.) and I built a float in less than a day, and was starting another. From then on we were separated, and they tried giving me help, but it never worked out, so I was assigned to build them alone.
We would take the floats out with a small boat, until one day when they said they needed the boat for another park. Bear in mind, that this was a political situation. They didn't have $2000 in the parks department to fix one of the other boats, but a few weeks later there was a half million a year to hire 5 deputy commissioners for a department with less than 200 employees. Anyway, we had to get the floats to the people who already paid to rent them, so we stood on them and pushed our way along the bulkheads to get them in place. One day, one of the guys fell in the water. It was 8 feet deep, and a cold, damp, misty, windy, day with water temps in the low 50's. The guy couldn't pull himself back up on the float, and was sinking fast. I threw him a rope from above, and yanked him out of the water. we figured he must have weighed over 300 lbs with a jacket and vest and work boots soaked with water. I injured my neck and shoulder, and eventually went out on workers comp.
Naturally, the pols fought me tooth and nail, and even refused to pay me for a while. The case is still going on after 5 years. That's the thanks you get when you save a county from a multi-million dollar wrongful death lawsuit.
Since then, I have to stop working after a half hour to an hour, and rest for 2 hours. The broken leg last year just naturally made things worse.
It would be nice if every project was as easy as the Meridian. I could make a bunch of those!

[Richie Rich]

....The case is still going on after 5 years. That's the thanks you get when you save a county from a multi-million dollar wrongful death lawsuit.
Since then, I have to stop working after a half hour to an hour, and rest for 2 hours. The broken leg last year just naturally made things worse.NO MORE MISTER NICE GUY...!!
And then we wonder why no one wants to get involved anymore.

Well, look at it this way....You'll get your reward IN THE END...!! :eek:

..........<RR>........

[TheKid]

And these are liberal Democrats. Oh, and by the way I got fired while on workers comp, because I found out it was the county comptroller who was holding up my payments, and thoroughly cursed him out in an e-mail.
I was peeved, because I had 7 days coming to me, which was supposed to be direct deposited in my bank account, as was my salary. The comptroller 's office pays the employees. Well, someone made a mistake, and paid me for 10 days. All I knew was that they made a deposit, so I paid a bunch of bills which by then, were overdue. The next day, they found the mistake, and withdrew the entire 10 days pay, but neglected to put the 7 days back in. I ended up being overdrawn, and was charged over $100 in fees. I filed a grievance with the union over being fired, just to break chops. I had no intention of going back to being a carpenter with the injuries I sustained. The county argued that they could not tolerate employees being disrespectful to elected officials, and superiors. I forgot to mention that for weeks, I was trying to find out why my payments weren't coming, and was getting the runaround. My patience wore thin, and I started yelling at county attorneys and other appointed morons. Apparently, my language was too salty, so they had some deputy commissioner I never heard of call me right after one of the "conversations" while I was still fuming. He said my behavior was unacceptable, and I was going to have to face disciplinary action. I told him the county was treating me like a piece of garbage after saving my co-workers life, I had every right to be angry, and that I couldn't take seriously the threats of some no name deputy commissioner, defining deputy commissioners as political hacks with their noses up some politicians butt. Apparently, he took that the wrong way. He was later fired for not supporting the guy who hired him who ran for Governor.
At the hearing for my grievance, the arbitrator ruled in my favor, and added that they should be ashamed of themselves. He said they should have given me a medal, not fired me.
To get back on the subject of this thread, I think I'll make a suspension rear so I could shove it up the comptrollers butt.

[Pagan Wizard]

TK, sadly, I feel your pain, in a figurative sence of the word. I am a staunch conservative working for a very liberal county government agency (how ironic is that??). A great many of my supervisors are well aware of this as well, and it can make for some "rather interesting" working conditions from time to time. Now that your grievance hearing is over and the arbitrator has ruled in your favor, I would strongly suggest hiring an attorney and sueing the bejesus out of those liberal hacks. Make sure you have every last piece of documentation from your bank reguarding what you explained BEFORE contacting an attorney, this will help your case a lot.

[TheKid]

I now have a bunch of steel, so maybe I'll attempt to make the suspension rear on the next project. I'll use 1" square tubing to make two rear triangles, and 1 3/8" OD round for the pivots, using flange bearings instead of bushings. I have a couple of 5 1/2" shocks I was going to use for a front end suspension project, but decided against it because the geometry gets too complicated.
As for suing the county:
Naturally, the county appealed the arbitrators ruling, and the case is still open. Union officials told me that some of these grievances have been dragged out for over ten years. In 2004, the newspapers reported that county employees that were wrongly fired and laid off in 1992 were finally ordered by the appeals courts to be reinstated with full wages and benefits paid retroactively. I know one guy who was fired four times and ordered reinstated with full pay, sick days, and vacation days after each time. That means four times they fired this guy and had to pay him 6 months to a year without him ever having worked. The first thing he did each time he was reinstated was to take his vacation days. After I left, I heard they were trying to fire him again, and he filed a harassment suit against them. These are idiots hired by elected officials who never learn. They're usually losers who all of a sudden think they're important because they have a position of authority, and could do what they want. The county exec keeps hiring more and more of these morons. I'm going to have to make many suspension rears.

[Richie Rich]

Kid...I just came across this in my 'Archives'.....

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/117/310803607_4c51245635.jpg

It's from a couple of years ago and I had nearly forgotten it. I may still do a mockup just to see if it has any merit.

....Richie >>

[gbbwolf]

Would love to see that when you get it worked out richie.
Love your front end quad mod.
May end up trying the quad mod myself.
Especially if I have to cut into my front end to adjust my trail.

Keep em coming.

Nelson

[TheKid]

That's a great design. I would never have thought to put the pivot in that position.

[Richie Rich]

Thanks, boys...

Once in awhile, a flash of inspiration flies through the old grey matter.

Now, where did I put that 'round tuit'....???

=====<RR>====

[gbbwolf]

I made like 500 Of these in woodshop in high school.
Carried them in my pockets for 3 years.
I may have to make some more sell em on ebay.
For (disgruntled wives).
Bet they sell like hotcakes...

Ahh better Idea just hit me.
No wood make em from poker chips.....

Nelson

[mvk2604]

Was this what 'The Kid' had in mind?http://i255.photobucket.com/albums/hh155/mvk2604/deltatrikeoverall.jpg

[mvk2604]

I would like to post images in the email but I dont quite see it? only thing I see is links. I have been lurking a long time with not a thing to add. Bought the plans for the delta trike and figured my welding skills were not up to keeping things straight. So my attempt is to use ready made parts and modify their place.

[mvk2604]

http://i255.photobucket.com/albums/hh155/mvk2604/rearsuspensiontrike.jpg

[gbbwolf]

http://i255.photobucket.com/albums/hh155/mvk2604/rearsuspensiontrike.jpg

[gbbwolf]

Quick question have you figured out the chain routing yet on that design.

I see a mid point jackshaft coming into play.

Very creative so far.

Keep up the good work.

Nelson

[TheKid]

Similar. My design has a little more steel, and incorporates a very wide upholstered seat. Yes, there's a jackshaft. It distributes power to two 8 speed SA hubs. I've since abandoned the plan because of weight issues. I tend to agree with Brad and other builders that a suspension seat would be more feasible, and accomplish the same comfort, as was discussed briefly in the old forums. I discovered a much lighter design for using the SA hubs, and combined with seat suspension, gives me positraction, with the benefits a limited slip differential would provide, except for being automatic, or more prcisely, intregal. For extreme hills, or the last leg of a trip when I often have to stop and rest, a small 12v motor would provide assistance. The lightweight RC motors are of great interest to me for this project.

[mvk2604]

Yes I had planned on a intermediate shaft. Short chains. But I dont know about where the pedals sit seems to me too close to ground. I wanted this trike to sit fairly high, but I am not too sure of the front 26" wheel. wondering about using 20". I may have to cut and angle the main tube like the delta wolf.

[mvk2604]

found where I have to insert pictures. DUH!!!!

[mvk2604]

My seat will not sit between the wheels , more in front of them.

[TheKid]

Prop the front up to where you want it, then design the front accordingly. A 20" front wheel would probably allow more room for pedal clearance, and allow for a shorter overall length. I don't recall the reasoning, but it's generally considered better to have a small front wheel on a recumbent trike. I originally had a 26" front wheel on the Hauler, but there was an issue with trail, which created an unacceptable amount of wheel flop. Rather than redesign the whole front end. I installed an old road fork with a fairly good amount of rake, but not enough. Installing a 20" wheel on that fork cured the problem, but I had to bend the fork to make the wheel fit. That weakened it to the point that I had to either build a new fork, or redesign the front end to take the original 26" fork. But that was a suspension fork, and I plan on installing a front hub motor, and the one I was most interested in would void the warranty if used with a suspension fork. So I just built the fork for the 20" wheel.
That's what happens when you don't plan ahead. So if you prop the trike frame in the position you want it to be in, you can then design the rest to fit that position.

[SirJoey]

Yes, very original design, MVK. You may be on to something, there. Keep up the good work, & keep the pics coming!

Oh yeah, welcome to the Krew! :)

http://img384.imageshack.us/img384/7131/sirjoeysigmedij1.gif

[theTman]

i know this thread is old, but i have a diagram of a possible suspension setup. i modeled it after some lower end suspension systems in atv's.
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3182/2748093128_93f04918a7.jpg

If you use a hinge and a pivot to rotate the hinge and 2 shocks attached to either side of the axle, and have them both connect to the back bar of the seat.
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3047/2747307095_7cde74bc46.jpg

[phall2008]

Noob alert. I'm sure this has already been touched on, but I thought I would check. I understand why you don't want to use a standard upright wheel hub. It will end up putting a lot of forces on a skinnier hub which will almost certainly crack a regular 26" if left alone. So we want to creat something new. I get that.

Other than creating a new hub from scratch is there another way to do this? I saw the photo where 2 upright wheels were welded on where the suspension is. I didn't know if that would work or not? Anyone had any issues with this when they tried it?

And if not and I creat a hub from scratch what do I need as far as spokes and a wheel goes? Would it still be the same # and/or spoke lengths or how does that change and how do the spokes stay in place?

I apologize I didn't read all the details as I was a little confused when I got to this part and couldn't "get it" enough to know what part of the puzzle I'm missing in trying to figure this part out.