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gapretzel
06-24-2008, 04:33 PM
Anybody got any ball park prices on what local wedling shops charge or how they figure there charges. How about aluminum?

gbbwolf
06-24-2008, 10:39 PM
My local welding shop charges 58 bucks an hr.
You can cut down on amount of time they have to spend welding,
If you just Tack Weld everything together.

Most of their time is spent setting everything up and getting angles correct and making sure its square and chit.

Like my guy told me he could weld my whole bike in 15 mins.

I did not take him up on it and I borrowed a mig welder.

Welds get better the more I do.

I practiced on old bike frames first, figured if I could weld that thin azz tubing the bigger chit be easy.

Then I grabbed a 6 inch peice of 1/8 inch, and a 6 inch piece of 3/16.
And welded both sides full then overlapped them.

Spent a whole day getting the feel for the welder.
13 bucks for a .30 spool of wire is a lot cheaper than 58 bucks an hr.

I had not seen a welder since high school, and there was not any mig welders then.

So learning was a lot of fun.

I love the smell of welding fumes in the morning.

Nelson

n9viw
06-25-2008, 03:25 PM
Nelson has the right of it. If you don't own a welder, ask around to your friends/colleagues and see if anyone has one you can borrow or rent. Or, if you have the time, enroll in a welding course at the local community college or Vo-Tech center. Most of those will allow you to work on your own stuff between classes, or if it's not too crowded. They may charge you shop time and materials, but as a student, that'll be quite a reduced rate from what you'd pay a weldor to do your work for you. Plus, you'll be learning how to do your OWN stuff, instead of someone else, so you'll have the pride of saying, "I BUILT IT MYSELF!"

If you start doing your own work with borrowed tools and get proficient enough to warrant wanting your own welder, keep a close eye on Craigslist. Stick, wire-feed and MIG welders show up from time to time at really good deals, when people upgrade equipment or get out of the use of it. I picked my stick welder up on ebay (a move I don't recommend; shipping is a BEYOTCH!) brand new for $350 shipped, and got my uber-MIG welder for $150 on Craigslist. Too bad it's 3-phase... :o

gbbwolf
06-26-2008, 01:00 AM
If you love building your own bike.
I do.
Then invest in a good welder stick or mig whichever you prefer,
Some say mig is only way to weld.
Other's prefer stick.

Some say you cant weld thin metel with a stick welder.
If that were true how did we ever get anything built b4 they invented tig or mig.
Heck in high school I welded many a bike frame back together as well as built my 750cc kawasaki go kart, with nothing more than a stick welder.

I don't own a welder yet IM POOR, But I borrowed a welder from a freind.
Still looking for the cheap welders in craigslist.
Luckily my one freind who's welder I borrowed and burnt to a crisp.(No automatic cutoff for duty cycle) really didnt mind .

Actually thanked me the other day cause his wife felt so bad his died.
She bought him a very nice snapon welder with 100 percent duty cycle.
She got it on craigslist cost her 500 bucks, not bad for a 3500 buck welder.

The mig welder i am using now, Another freind's, is a clarke 130en.

Does a fairly decent job even at 20% duty cycle.
20% is fine I don't weld much more than 2 mins out of 10 anyways.

By the time metal cools and I figure out my next step sometimes it may be an hr.

nelson

trikeman
06-26-2008, 01:44 AM
Most consumer MIGs have only a 20% duty cycle. Not many need more than that, since as you said you generally spend lots of time setting up the weld. I read somewhere last year that the average duty cycle of a professional welder (the person, not the machine) is about 35%. In other words much more than 20% is probably not needed by the average joe.

Before MIG and TIG people welded sheet metal and thin tubing with oxy-acetylene. I don't find welding 16ga steel with stick much harder with the right rod than I do with flux core, which is what I mostly use, since I weld outside.

Keep watching Craigslist. I think I waited about 6 months before I scored my Miller Thunderbolt stick there.

Odd Man Out
06-27-2008, 06:14 PM
gapretzel

Welding AL gets expensive -- The equipment for AC TIG costs BIG and the learning curve to handle the electrode in one hand and the wire in the other while finessing the "gas" pedal with a foot takes time to get right -- so you are paying for the artisanship of the welder.

TIG AL welding if done right looks like a work of art and I enjoy the hell out of it. I have just finished my first week of a TIG welding class at my local Community College and I am HOOKED!!! I can honestly say that after 20 hours of "welding" (I use that term loosely) that anyone can master the art of TIG. An example of newby TIG work:
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3130/2616103769_f0ef572315.jpg

A way to help finance the purchase of welding supplies would be to become a business -- you can then (in the U.S. so far) write off your purchases as a business expense and take them off your taxes. You just need to make sure that you do indeed sell something sometime to make all things fully legit.

gbbwolf
06-28-2008, 12:27 AM
TIG AL welding if done right looks like a work of art and I enjoy the hell out of it. I have just finished my first week of a TIG welding class at my local Community College and I am HOOKED!!! I can honestly say that after 20 hours of "welding" (I use that term loosely) that anyone can master the art of TIG. An example of newby TIG work:

If thats a newby tig weld I would be sold too.
Thats a nice looking weld

Well done

Nelson

trikeman
08-10-2008, 11:00 PM
Nice work.

trikeman
08-10-2008, 11:02 PM
A way to help finance the purchase of welding supplies would be to become a business -- you can then (in the U.S. so far) write off your purchases as a business expense and take them off your taxes. You just need to make sure that you do indeed sell something sometime to make all things fully legit.

You need to do more than just sell something to make it legit. The IRS requires you to make a PROFIT within 5 years, or they consider it a hobby, and the tax writeoff disappears.

Odd Man Out
08-11-2008, 01:50 AM
You need to do more than just sell something to make it legit. The IRS requires you to make a PROFIT within 5 years, or they consider it a hobby, and the tax writeoff disappears.

Yo, T'man

Would a profit of $1000 to $1300 be okay???
Also for anyone interested, you need to have an ironclad release of liability contract drawn up and signed by the new owner and a witness as part of the selling process. This is just a common sense exercise in our litigious society.

Odd Man Out

trikeman
08-11-2008, 08:17 AM
Yo, T'man

Would a profit of $1000 to $1300 be okay???
Also for anyone interested, you need to have an ironclad release of liability contract drawn up and signed by the new owner and a witness as part of the selling process. This is just a common sense exercise in our litigious society.

Odd Man Out

I am not an accountant, but my understanding is even $1 is OK. The IRS probably has some more elaborate way to determine whether you really do have a business or a hobby, but its generally not worth their while to collect a few extra dollars from a small time hobbyist. They like to get a good gain for pursuing it. My wife used to do fancy needlework as a hobby. She started selling the graphs (consider them plans) that she made by meticulously copying antique samplers she bought. Since we share things such as digital cameras, computers etc, there were several years where one of my businesses picked up some of the equipment to make sure she made a small profit. She really was trying to sell them, but I wouldn't say she was driven to do so. My accountant says there is always judgment in such determinations, and you may as judge it favorably lol. The number of people pursing a hobby as a "business" is pretty large. Some of them have some very expensive hobbies too. I really do need to get on the bandwagon and make my bike building into a "business," instead of a hobby. Then I could write off my welders and not pay tax on materials, and supposedly get parts at wholesale prices. Unless I do more building, it would not be worth the trouble yet.

http://www.irs.gov/newsroom/article/0,,id=169490,00.html

I am also not a lawyer, but I have always heard that having a customer sign an agreement that you have no liability doesn't absolve you of negligence under the law (especially if it is considered gross negligence by the judge or jury). They do keep unsophisticated customers from suing you though. For example, if I was in the business of building bicycles and had my customers sign an agreement that I was not responsible for them getting hurt on it, but then designed and built a few that killed some clients with faulty welds or design, I doubt the agreement would be worth the paper it was written on. I would be expected to know what I was doing, since I was in the business, and the customers would say that they signed the agreement assuming I knew what I was doing. Since you cannot sign away your right to sue, there is no such thing as an "ironclad" release of liability, only ways to make it more difficult to sue (such as agreeing to pick up the other side's defense costs).

http://answers.google.com/answers/threadview?id=583307

Odd Man Out
08-11-2008, 11:22 AM
Trikeman

Agree with all you said -- though the idea of someone building and continuing to sell bikes that are defective and dangerous seems a bit extreme stretch in the logic area... Wait, I take that back, There are ALL kinds of people around but that type would be in the "Jeffrey Dahmer" class -- hopefully extremely rare and on the fringe.

My mother in law worked for the I.R.S. and my wife is an attorney.
1 cent over what you put into what you sell is a profit and, while people sue over pretty much everything nowadays, the combination of a well built bike and a solid release of liability contract helps me to sleep well at night after a vehicle has left my possession.

Odd Man Out

TheKid
08-11-2008, 11:24 AM
That's true, there's no such thing as an "ironclad" release of liability. If one is in the business of building bicycles, there are federal laws regarding safety, including the design, which must meet standards and pass inspections. I've been told that any welding must be done by, or under the supervision of, a certified welder. There is no protection of liability against an illegally produced product.

trikeman
08-11-2008, 11:26 AM
Trikeman



My mother in law worked for the I.R.S. and my wife is an attorney.
1 cent over what you put into what you sell is a profit and, while people sue over pretty much everything nowadays, the combination of a well built bike and a solid release of liability contract helps me to sleep well at night after a vehicle has left my possession.

Odd Man Out


Sounds like you have it covered in spades then. I just din't want folks thinking that just because they get a paper signed by a buyer they can do whatever they want.

I'm also glad to know that 1 cent thing, since that is the way I have always chosen to interpret the rule from the IRS. After reading the rule again, I also think you are correct that one probably has to make some effort to sell or it would be pretty hard to prove you were in business. Of course selling one or two is pretty good evidence, I'd say.

Now we know who to ask lol.

TheKid
08-11-2008, 01:21 PM
Here's another tidbit of info I just remembered. Because more businesses fail than succeed, all you have to do is prove intent to make a profit. Any commercial or direct mail advertisement is one form of proof. Another is complying with many local government requirements of registering a business. Any documents declaring yourself DBA are also proof.
Most states have a sales tax, so if you plan on selling retail, you'll also have to apply for the right to collect sales taxes. If you don't, you face charges by state and federal agencies.

Odd Man Out
08-11-2008, 06:28 PM
Most states have a sales tax, so if you plan on selling retail, you'll also have to apply for the right to collect sales taxes. If you don't, you face charges by state and federal agencies.

If I don't see the whites of the buyer's eyes, I don't do biz. My wife works for NIKE and rides her DW to work. All my biz is word of mouth. Anyway, you really need to have to buyer around so you can "fit" the vehicle to them.:o

A great day to all.

Odd Man Out

P.S. if I get to 101 messages do I automatically become a AZ guru and get my secret decoder ring???

SirJoey
08-11-2008, 06:47 PM
...if I get to 101 messages do I automatically become a AZ guru and get my secret decoder ring???

Yes, but don't become a "post junkie". ;)

http://img384.imageshack.us/img384/7131/sirjoeysigmedij1.gif

Mike
08-11-2008, 07:33 PM
That's true, there's no such thing as an "ironclad" release of liability. If one is in the business of building bicycles, there are federal laws regarding safety, including the design, which must meet standards and pass inspections. I've been told that any welding must be done by, or under the supervision of, a certified welder. There is no protection of liability against an illegally produced product.

Kind of off topic.....

I just received the replacement rear axel for my www.worksman.com (http://forum.atomiczombie.com/www.worksman.com) Port-O-Trike, new Trike had a bent one. If this is any example of quality factory welding, then my limited skills, at welding, are 'up to par' for working at Worksman Cycles!

www.allsurplus.net/trike/100_1142.jpg (http://www.allsurplus.net/trike/100_1142.jpg)

www.allsurplus.net/trike/100_1143.jpg (http://www.allsurplus.net/trike/100_1143.jpg)

Wow! My first words were 'ick!, it might hold'.

Mike

Richie Rich
08-11-2008, 07:49 PM
WOW..! I guess 'Worksman' doesn't necessarily mean 'workmanship.

....<RR>...

Mike
08-11-2008, 07:53 PM
Especially from a USA made product from a company that says it has been in business since 1898!

TheKid
08-11-2008, 09:02 PM
I guess the required certified welder overseeing the apprentices was off that day, or more likely, sleeping on the throne. The weld will hold, which is what the government agencies are interested in. The welds don't have to be pretty. But if Worksman keeps producing axles that bend, and welds that sloppy, they won't make it to 2009.

gbbwolf
08-12-2008, 03:21 AM
My first weld looked better than that.
And what the guy on splatter cleanup missed that one.

And to think I thought my welding was sub-par.

That looks like a 13 year old welded it using his dad's welder.

And he was blind in 1 eye and had a patch over the other..

Remind me not to buy a worksman.

Look at that picture again hardly any of the weld material is even touching the axle.

I would send that back to worksman and ask them wtf.

nelson

n9viw
08-13-2008, 02:24 PM
While Nelson's right about holding them accountable for their crappy work, I wouldn't send it back. You stand a good chance of getting another one that's as bad or worse, or not getting your old one back and not also getting a new one!

Personally, I'd grind that booger out of there and weld it back up myself. That's just ludicrous, passing that off as factory work! Looks like a disgruntled employee... or string of them, if it went thru QC that way, AND got halfway painted!

gbbwolf
08-13-2008, 02:42 PM
Email them and send them a picture of it.
Someone has to know that they are sending out crap.
Didn't even look at the paint Nice catch LOL.

Sad thing is I just recently worked on a worksman cycle, it was an old bugger too made in 1968.

The old paint looked better than that.

And only thing that was wrong with it was basic maintenance,and a new chain, I changed front crank out, only because he wanted a bigger chainring.

Sad when a 40 year old trike will probably last longer than the new trikes they make today.

Nelson

AtomicZombie
08-13-2008, 05:32 PM
Oh come on now! You can't expect a 75 year old Chinese lady to get the welds perfect everytime. Especially with only a 15 minute break per day in a hot dingy warehouse.

Made in the US can mean many things. I wonder how much of the trike is actually not made overseas.

Brad

TheKid
08-13-2008, 05:51 PM
Yeah. Made in the USA often means assembled in the USA, even cars. GM has most of their smaller parts made in Malaysia and China.