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charlie_r
06-23-2013, 04:33 PM
Finally have time to work on the trike.

As many of you know, I broke it this spring by overloading it by a large margin.

I didn't take pics showing where it broke, but I can describe. Where the main boom is welded to the rear box frame, I had been encountering a bit of frame flex. Cracks formed just ahead of the welds.

As I was cutting the damaged area out, I noted that the center pillow block mount tube was also developing cracks, allowing the mount to move forward and down when I applied too much pedal power.

That's a brief synopsis of the why, now for the how.

I have enlarged the box by 3" in both width and length, moved the axles back to approximately centered, and am building a truss arrangement for both center axle support, and to reinforce the main boom to box connection. the enlargement was needed to better accommodate the loads.

As an added bonus, this may be giving me a place to mount the new 250W motor, controller and batteries for electric assist.

Now it's pic time!

This is just the beginning. Rear box modified, and starting to tack the angle pieces in place.

http://i1094.photobucket.com/albums/i459/bcgeorge/bike%20pictures/th_newrear1_zps5388620c.jpg (http://s1094.photobucket.com/user/bcgeorge/media/bike%20pictures/newrear1_zps5388620c.jpg.html)

I will be using the two bars as the lower chord of the truss. In these pics they are just being used to line up the angle sections.

http://i1094.photobucket.com/albums/i459/bcgeorge/bike%20pictures/th_newrear2_zps39b32e4f.jpg (http://s1094.photobucket.com/user/bcgeorge/media/bike%20pictures/newrear2_zps39b32e4f.jpg.html)

The piece sticking up like a periscope will be cut off and welded in where it is, once I find the proper height for the bars with a plate for the center bearings.

http://i1094.photobucket.com/albums/i459/bcgeorge/bike%20pictures/th_newrear3_zps49af2ff9.jpg (http://s1094.photobucket.com/user/bcgeorge/media/bike%20pictures/newrear3_zps49af2ff9.jpg.html)

All holes will be closed before painting. Later on during this rebuild, I will be updating and filling out the lights thread I started.

Ticktock
06-23-2013, 08:35 PM
Careful you don't get locked into the --"make it stronger to carry more, carry even more so need to make it stronger--now ts heavier so I need to strengthen it more to carry more"- cycle!
Looking good, and likre there is a fair bit of work there.
By the way, since I have finished the Mystery build, I can tell you that one "new" style brake lever does not work with two "old" style caliper brakes! I think you will need discs on everything to get them to work on bike and trailer from one lever. Unfortunately for me, fitting discs would be a pain, so I will just update to newer calipers.
Front disc stops it on half a dkime anyway, even with two on board.
Have fun,
Steve G

Radical Brad
06-24-2013, 09:26 AM
You will be able to carry a car with it now!

Brad

SirJoey
06-24-2013, 10:26 AM
Which engine do U plan on using? Ford, Chevy, Chrysler, BOEING?



**** The Truth Is Out There! ****
http://img384.imageshack.us/img384/7131/sirjoeysigmedij1.gif
(Geezer & Bent Enthusiast At Large)

Ticktock
06-24-2013, 10:55 AM
Brad, He might be able to carry the car--the real question is---how far can he carry the car????
Steve G

Ticktock
06-24-2013, 10:59 AM
Hi Sir Joey,
I have this vision Of Charlie on the loadrunner with flaming jet motors on 1 in 2 hill(up), trying to stop, waving papers at every mail box!
He did tell me he needed better brakes--seems he forgot to tell me why!
Steve G
Beijing

charlie_r
06-25-2013, 06:56 AM
Sorry guys, Not intended to increase the load weight. The slight increased in size is intended to make it easier to distribute the load.


You will be able to carry a car with it now!

Brad

Not going to happen, at least not with this build.



Which engine do U plan on using? Ford, Chevy, Chrysler, BOEING?

**** The Truth Is Out There! ****
http://img384.imageshack.us/img384/7131/sirjoeysigmedij1.gif
(Geezer & Bent Enthusiast At Large)

Funny you should say that. I had been considering the 150 cc four stroke I have sitting in the yard. Decided to use that on the quad (4x6), if I get to build it.


Brad, He might be able to carry the car--the real question is---how far can he carry the car????
Steve G

When did I become Superman?


Hi Sir Joey,
I have this vision Of Charlie on the loadrunner with flaming jet motors on 1 in 2 hill(up), trying to stop, waving papers at every mail box!
He did tell me he needed better brakes--seems he forgot to tell me why!
Steve G
Beijing

Better brakes, yes, if I was going with the Cyclebully trailer for the electric assist. Otherwise, these will (should) do OK.

These mods are designed to better suit my use of the vehicle. Remember, Brad had originally designed it as a "grocery getter" not intended to be constantly carrying max weight over rough roads and hopping curbs.

I expect to be adding another 50 - 60 lbs when I include the motor and associated equipment.

In other news, My son was checking out a local "city wide garage sale" type event in a suburb of Spokane, WA (where he lives) and managed to snag 5 new 12V 8Ah batteries for $10. Still had the original packaging. He's got no use for them, bought them to ship to me for this project. Date code on the packaging says only 6 months old. Story he was told about them was they were intended to be used on a modified uninterruptible power supply, but the owner had found a bank of 2V 50Ah (Yes that is two volt) extreme deep cycle batteries that were still in good shape fairly cheap. So why go with only 8Ah?

At any rate, I'll have an extra set for this. Slightly shorter range, but not by much. I have 10Ah for the first set, and will use these as a back-up.

Still have to buy a 36V charger, and figure out how I'm going to do the gear or chain reduction for the 250W motor.

Ibedayank
06-25-2013, 09:34 AM
Charlie have you thought about using a bottom bracket drive system?
take advantage of the bikes gearing to keep the Emotor turning in it's sweet spot
http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1154/566723470_677edfdde6.jpg

charlie_r
06-25-2013, 06:44 PM
Yes, I have thought about that. What rpm does that motor turn?

The one I have is wound for 2500 rpm. With a 11t sprocket on the motor, I'd need a 120t to bring it down to where I need it. Otherwise I run the risk of burning the motor by running it at too low an rpm constantly.

What I'm tentatively planning is a double reduction unit, on a pair of jackshafts. Probably at one end of the same one I use for my ratchet differential, and a modified rear hub.

At any rate, the final for it will be keyed to the differential shaft through a freewheel. Not going to run through the pedal powered gearsets. All I'm looking for is an assist, not an electric screamer.

Ibedayank
06-25-2013, 08:03 PM
Charlie
here is the link to that thread
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=1273

charlie_r
06-25-2013, 08:26 PM
In that thread, he mentions an overheating problem. That could have been caused by the motor not being allowed to run up to is best speed. Mentioned also is the unloaded rpm of 2800. A lashout gearbox at 4.7:1, driving the 17 tooth freewheel motor gear to a 90 tooth on the cranks. I think that is still overloading the motor, so heat issues.

These motors are supposedly designed to run at about 80% of the unloaded rpm, any slower for extended periods of time and overheating becomes an issue.

Anyway, thanks for the link.

charlie_r
06-28-2013, 10:40 AM
An update:

I've got the truss at least tacked in, and some of the welding done.

http://i1094.photobucket.com/albums/i459/bcgeorge/bike%20pictures/th_newrear4_zps82b49002.jpg (http://s1094.photobucket.com/user/bcgeorge/media/bike%20pictures/newrear4_zps82b49002.jpg.html)

http://i1094.photobucket.com/albums/i459/bcgeorge/bike%20pictures/th_newrear5_zps2e81c5bf.jpg (http://s1094.photobucket.com/user/bcgeorge/media/bike%20pictures/newrear5_zps2e81c5bf.jpg.html)

http://i1094.photobucket.com/albums/i459/bcgeorge/bike%20pictures/th_newrear6_zps11d2ebab.jpg (http://s1094.photobucket.com/user/bcgeorge/media/bike%20pictures/newrear6_zps11d2ebab.jpg.html)

Ticktock
06-29-2013, 09:28 AM
I think you might need a new licence for this one--its going to be so much better for what you do with it ! This is the theory of evolution in practice!
Steve G,
Beijing

demon327
09-01-2013, 06:14 PM
Charlie, I love how this is coming together. I'm curious to see how you will connect to the axle with it moved so far back. Also, what did you use for handle bars?

charlie_r
09-02-2013, 06:10 AM
When I get back to it. Having problems currently, with other non trike projects.

The handlebars are 3/4" EMT (electrical conduit) bent as suggested by another thread here, just positioned more convenient for my use.

Connection to the axle. I assume you mean how I'm going to run the chains. There won't be much change in that from what it was.

Chains will run pedals>mid drive>differential jackshaft>axles.

I'm going to add an electric motor, with it's chain running to the mid drive.

charlie_r
09-24-2014, 09:10 AM
After a long hiatus due to both mental and physical health problems, I am back working on my trike.

I was given a 24V 250W MY1016 motor, and have started to make the needed changes to the trike. Here are a few pics and a few words about what I'm doing:

This is how far I got before my difficulties cropped up.

http://i1094.photobucket.com/albums/i459/bcgeorge/bike%20pictures/trike%20electric%20mod/th_2109-072149_zps259cc885.jpg (http://s1094.photobucket.com/user/bcgeorge/media/bike%20pictures/trike%20electric%20mod/2109-072149_zps259cc885.jpg.html)

Test rig to see how much speed reduction I'd need. Motor has 11T sprocket, first pic has 65T on the wheel. Speed for 20" wheel was 58mph at full motor rpm. Second pic has 90T on the axle, speed at 52mph. Double reduction will be needed. Motor is being driven with 36V 350W controller. The serial number on the motor comes back as a 36V 350W unit that was downrated for scooter use.

http://i1094.photobucket.com/albums/i459/bcgeorge/bike%20pictures/trike%20electric%20mod/th_2109-072204_zps2bec5e9b.jpg (http://s1094.photobucket.com/user/bcgeorge/media/bike%20pictures/trike%20electric%20mod/2109-072204_zps2bec5e9b.jpg.html)

http://i1094.photobucket.com/albums/i459/bcgeorge/bike%20pictures/trike%20electric%20mod/th_2109-072255_zps25f99910.jpg (http://s1094.photobucket.com/user/bcgeorge/media/bike%20pictures/trike%20electric%20mod/2109-072255_zps25f99910.jpg.html)

I've started the motor and first stage reduction. I'll cut a slot in the mount for the output sprocket when I have it in hand. I had to remove the under seat steering to make room for the motor. I'll be making the OSS per plans once I have the drive train finished.

http://i1094.photobucket.com/albums/i459/bcgeorge/bike%20pictures/trike%20electric%20mod/th_2309-082821_zpsd307b03d.jpg (http://s1094.photobucket.com/user/bcgeorge/media/bike%20pictures/trike%20electric%20mod/2309-082821_zpsd307b03d.jpg.html)

The extra axle length will be cut down when I finalize the placement of the output sprocket, and the left bearing moved inboard a bit. Seat is of course temporary, to check clearances for chainline, cranks, etc. I'm planning on mounting the mid drive above and forward of the first stage reduction, with chain adjustment accomplished by longer bolts and jam nuts mounting it to the frame.

http://i1094.photobucket.com/albums/i459/bcgeorge/bike%20pictures/trike%20electric%20mod/th_2309-083138_zpsd0cbe325.jpg (http://s1094.photobucket.com/user/bcgeorge/media/bike%20pictures/trike%20electric%20mod/2309-083138_zpsd0cbe325.jpg.html)

Batteries will be placed behind the seat, 6 12V 10Ah total, 3s2p connected. If I find I need more Ah capacity, I can add another 3 above those 6, or add them to the front of the motor mount both above the main tube and below.

http://i1094.photobucket.com/albums/i459/bcgeorge/bike%20pictures/trike%20electric%20mod/th_2309-083156_zps7b76926b.jpg (http://s1094.photobucket.com/user/bcgeorge/media/bike%20pictures/trike%20electric%20mod/2309-083156_zps7b76926b.jpg.html)

I thought this build was heavy before, but now I'm adding a LOT more weight to it! Eventually, I'd like to go to LiPo chemistry, for both the weight and size reduction.

darnthedog
09-24-2014, 10:38 AM
Welcome back Charlie glad you could come back.
And observation to maybe assist with weight a bit. Your motor mounting seems a bit overly complex. Why not mount the large gear directly to the driven Axle and mount the motor under the box frame.? Can you mount the large gear to a freewheel so axle can spin freely, for when the motor is not applied?
The controller can mount anywhere as it does not need to be next to the motor itself.
I mention these ideas as I can see the mass of a platform your attempting to mount the motor too. As to speed with your previously proposed weights I doubt you will achieve 58 mph with that little motor once loaded down.
Another saving of weight and increasing distance as well is to go Lithium Ion batteries instead. Not sure if you have been following Emma's A.K.A. Twinkles builds of electric tadpoles. But lowering the weight of the batteries help her increase distance of assist and gave her better power to weight ratio. It cost a bit more but she seems much happier with them. So when you can swing it up the batteries to Lithium.

Just some thoughts to try and assist. You have been missed and your ears must have been burning as I was just mentioning your Rectifier mod to your welder yesterday. And refered to your first Loderunner several times. As folks have asked about Weight capacity a few time over the last year or so. So I'm glad to see you back.

charlie_r
09-24-2014, 03:58 PM
The platform/motor mount is a piece of 12ga from an old computer desk that was given to me. Shape was already bent as you see it. I'll probably shorten it close to the stage 1 bearings.

I thought about putting the motor under the box, but that would require a long chain to the mid drive, where I am adding the motor power in.

I don't want a trike capable of 50+mph, just some assist while going up hills. That is why the double reduction before the mid drive. Calculations show a top speed of just over 20mph assisted. Anything more will have to be leg power alone.

Yes, I'm planning on moving to Li-Ion if and when I can afford it. At almost 8lb each, those batteries represent the majority of the weight added to the trike. I could do with being able to cut that by 1/3, extra range not considered. Right now this is all I can afford.

The HF welder is toast. I ran it too long welding some sch 80 well casing with not enough cool-down time. Fried the transformer. The rectifier that I added though, did make it work quite a bit better. Replacement is a Lincoln "handy mig", with gas capability, bought while the local Lowes had it on special.

darnthedog
09-24-2014, 04:59 PM
I had forgotten you drive both wheels so now I have a better idea of why you placed it there. Sorry you lost the HF welder- I just proved it could be done. But I guess it really is not not going to take any abuse.

Well I hope your happy with the Lincoln. I have the Weldpak 100 and added gas shielding right away. Recently added Tig/Stick to my collection of toys from Everlast. If the heat wave ever cools off I might get a chance to play with it soon. Need to rebuild my weld cart to hold it all. I also just investing in a better Helmet. It's a Lincoln 3350 with grind mode so I can grind and weld with same face shield. Was having issues when Tig welding seeing puddle as my old basic Miller would not go low enough and it was too dark to see. This one goes 4 shades lighter. Haven't gotten to try it yet. So I hope to be welding with it soon.

charlie_r
09-24-2014, 05:49 PM
Currently for me, gas would not be much of an option, as all of my welding is done open air. I'm going to change that over the next few months, though. I've started to get a corner of the back yard ready for building a dirt floor shelter out of 1x1 square tubing.

A good helmet is also on the must have here. I bought a helmet from one of the local farm and home chains, and the headgear wasn't assembled properly. Stripped the poly plastic teeth off the adjustment band the first time I tried to adjust it.

charlie_r
10-24-2014, 10:44 AM
An update on the progress of electrification. Sorry for the slightly blurry pics, not too steady this morning.

Trimmed the motor mount, after checking for derailleur clearance. You can see a bit of the truss I'm also adding to help with vertical frame flex.

http://i1094.photobucket.com/albums/i459/bcgeorge/bike%20pictures/trike%20electric%20mod/th_2410-083412_zps8278a885.jpg (http://s1094.photobucket.com/user/bcgeorge/media/bike%20pictures/trike%20electric%20mod/2410-083412_zps8278a885.jpg.html)

The motor output second reduction and mid drive axle. The 65T sprocket has a freewheel so I'm not trying to drive the motor when not in use. I'm in the process of making a new adapter for the freewheel, that is what the relatively long tube is. That will of course be cut off and turned around as it is completed. I'm using the motor to drive my "poor man's lathe" for welding and grinding purposes.

http://i1094.photobucket.com/albums/i459/bcgeorge/bike%20pictures/trike%20electric%20mod/th_2410-083431_zpsf21d9930.jpg (http://s1094.photobucket.com/user/bcgeorge/media/bike%20pictures/trike%20electric%20mod/2410-083431_zpsf21d9930.jpg.html)

Better pic of the support truss. So far it's just tacked together.

http://i1094.photobucket.com/albums/i459/bcgeorge/bike%20pictures/trike%20electric%20mod/th_2410-083452_zpsc55a2db2.jpg (http://s1094.photobucket.com/user/bcgeorge/media/bike%20pictures/trike%20electric%20mod/2410-083452_zpsc55a2db2.jpg.html)

Six 12V 10Ah SLA batteries will power this for now, until I can save up enough for a LiPoly set with battery management system and charger. In my research on this, I have noted for this type of use, you will only get about 1/2 the Ah available from the batteries if you keep the voltage drain to a reasonable level for battery life. That's why I've gone to a 3S2P set, giving me almost full 10Ah available.

http://i1094.photobucket.com/albums/i459/bcgeorge/bike%20pictures/trike%20electric%20mod/th_2410-083511_zpsfdc99366.jpg (http://s1094.photobucket.com/user/bcgeorge/media/bike%20pictures/trike%20electric%20mod/2410-083511_zpsfdc99366.jpg.html)

Better view of the 65T with freewheel, and the output gear to the rear gearset. I'll need to add a couple of idlers to avoid frame interference on that chain.

http://i1094.photobucket.com/albums/i459/bcgeorge/bike%20pictures/trike%20electric%20mod/th_2410-083629_zps432eb148.jpg (http://s1094.photobucket.com/user/bcgeorge/media/bike%20pictures/trike%20electric%20mod/2410-083629_zps432eb148.jpg.html)

I'm only able to work on it an hour or so weather permitting, so updates will seem to be few and far between.

Twinkle
10-24-2014, 12:40 PM
10 ah batteries should give about 6ah at their 1 hour rate so you should be okay for capacity ( 12 ah )

mind you at 60lbs for the batteries I hope you don't have to pedal it home far on a flat battery

a 37v 10 ah lithium or lifepo4 will bring the weight down as they only weigh about 5 kg

regard emma

charlie_r
10-25-2014, 08:00 AM
If I do have to pedal it home with flat batteries, I'll have low enough gearing. It will just take a lot of time, that' all.

Recently received an R/C wattmeter, capable of 48V and 100A peak, 50A constant. Hooked it up between batteries and motor. I've tried to stall the motor at the primary reduction shaft, and can't do it. Highest reading on the meter was 418W. 3 minutes at this power level, and the motor didn't even start to get warm. Didn't catch the actual A at that moment, but Watt's law shows it to have been ~10.5A@39.8V. I'm getting the idea that for the 1.5 - 2 hours I'll need the assist, I'll be fine for battery power. This mod is just to help me get up hills, really won't need it for more than that. This trike has always done well on the flats and downhill. True I'll have a bit more weight in this configuration, but I'm sure things will be OK. Trading speed for torque appears to be the way to go with this thing. Now I'm starting to wonder if the bicycle chain is going to be up to the task.....

Yes I'm going to eventually go to LiPo chemistry, and use these batteries as the source for recharging the LiPo sets. SLA can be kept on float without the need for constant attendance, where LiPo needs to be watched. We know the SLA will give up the energy fairly quickly, and can be trickle charged back to full. What I've learned of LiPo -- no matter which sub chemistry -- need to be charged at specific rates or risk damage and reduced capacity. Since I cannot afford the high amperage charger for a set large enough for my trike, but can come up with a BMS, why not use what I have to power the recharge?

I finally was able to peel apart the several labels on the motor, this MY1016 has been rated from the factory at (I think this is funny!) 180W@24V, 250W@24V, and 250W@36V. These are Unite Motor original stickers that were placed on top of each other from the factory...... My guess is that they use this same motor for several different configurations of stand-up scooters, and just labeled for what they needed on that particular run, with any leftover motors relabeled for the next run.

Twinkle
10-25-2014, 08:18 AM
Fear not
I have used these motors and they are not too bad in fact I have 2 sitting doing nothing in the bit box ..
as for lipo technology take a look at hobby king they had some 5ah lipos at sensible prices and a 12v 8s charger as well if you make a couple of "split " packs then it will be easy to charge using a model rc type charger .
I have a 48v ( 14s 1p ) pack that chargers in 2 x 7 s configurations ( i use as a reserve pack 5ah gives me 8 miles )

I am sure you will have fun and find it will help ,
As I keep telling people its no good getting old unless you use te wisdom gained getting there

regards emma

charlie_r
10-26-2014, 06:55 AM
Yes, I could do a split pack for charging, however that would require changing leads after every ride. Since I use this vehicle every day, that would soon become problematic with wear on the connectors. I'll be tapping off from both the 12V and 24V levels from the SLA, and possibly from lower and higher than that from LiPO to run the other electronics on the trike. I'm not sure how I could do a split pack with these extra taps.

With the LiPO, I could afford the extra weight for dedicated packs for the lights and other controls. This would also extend my Ah budget for each of the different types of circuits. The problem is monetary budget constraints, in getting the better batteries.

I really do appreciate the input from everyone, helping me on my quest for a good work vehicle.