View Full Version : Is it a bike or a car? Wa Gov doesn't know!
Locutus
07-23-2008, 12:54 AM
I've been doing some research on Washington State regulations as they may apply to the Streetfighter quad cycle. Washington doesn't seem to have a defined classification for what a four-wheel pedal powered car is, but the regulations do infer what it is not: a bicycle. The regs state that a bicycle is defined, in part, as a two tandem or three wheel human pedal powered vehicle.
Regulations vary from state to state, but the Washington regs are relevant as a guide for residents of other states because Washington, as do many other states, follow the Federal Motor Vehicle Safety standards.
Here's the details of what I found out:
Until recently I was more interested in building a freeway capable electric tadpole vehicle, until I realized how expensive it would be, and how much bureaucracy I'd have to wade through to get it titled and licensed. I called the state patrol in Olympia (the capitol) and talked to someone there about it, who later sent me this email:
"Attached for your convenience is a document outlining most of the laws
pertaining to motorcycles. These laws may be found in their entirety at
www.leg.wa.gov (http://www.leg.wa.gov/) and selecting rules and laws (RCWs and WACs) - once there
you will look under Title 46.37 RCW and Title 204 WAC to find most of
the vehicle requirements (below is a listing of some requirements that
may help you navigate these laws). The Federal Motor Vehicle Safety
standards may be accessed at the following URL:
http://www.fmcsa.dot.gov/rules-regulations/administration/fmcsr/fmcsrgui (http://www.fmcsa.dot.gov/rules-regulations/administration/fmcsr/fmcsrgui)dedetails.asp?rule_toc=777§ion_toc=777"
...(Any motorized two or three wheel vehicle is considered a motorcycle with certain exceptions.)
When I became more interested in human powered vehicles (HPVs), and especially velomobiles (fully faired HPVs), I sent another inquiry in to the state:
"Hello,
I'm considering building this 4-wheel human-powered vehicle, or quad
cycle:
http://www.atomiczombie.com/product-streetfighter.htm (http://www.atomiczombie.com/product-streetfighter.htm)
In the RCWs I found the definition of bicycle to include two and three
wheeled pedal vehicles but no mention of four wheels. So my questions
are:
1. How would such a vehicle be classified, and would it be legal to ride on public roads in the same manner as bicycles?
2. If I were to add electric assist similiar to those powering electric-assisted bicycles, would it be legal to ride on public roads in the same manner as electric-assisted bicycles?"
...which garnered this response:
"To answer your question, no, a four wheel vehicle would not be allowed
to operate in the same manner as a bicycle or an electric assisted
bicycle. In order for a vehicle to be street legal, the vehicle must
meet the federal requirements for that type of vehicle and be certified
by the manufacturer to meet those standards.
By definition any vehicle that has four wheels would have to fall under
one of the following categories in order to be licensable in Washington
State (attached are a list of the requirements and restrictions for each
of these vehicles for your convenience... these are also available on
our Web site at http://devweb/newsfaqs/faqs.htm#vehclass (http://devweb/newsfaqs/faqs.htm#vehclass)):
1. A Neighborhood Electric Vehicle (must be electrically powered and
cannot go faster than 25 mph - requires a valid drivers license).
2. A passenger vehicle (can be gas or electrically powered - requires a
valid drivers license)
If you are interested in looking up these requirements in their
entirety, they may be found at www.leg.wa.gov (http://www.leg.wa.gov/) and selecting laws and
agency rules and then clicking on RCWs and WACs - once there you will
look under Title 46.37 RCW and Title 204 WAC to find most of the vehicle
requirements. The Federal Motor Vehicle Safety standards may be accessed
at the following URL:
http://www.fmcsa.dot.gov/rules-regulations/administration/fmcsr/fmcsrgui (http://www.fmcsa.dot.gov/rules-regulations/administration/fmcsr/fmcsrgui)dedetails.asp?rule_toc=777§ion_toc=777 "
...For further clarification I asked this:
"Is this the case even if there is no motor and it is powered by human
leg operated pedals only?
Can I use a quad cycle on a bike path such as the Burke-Gilman Trail?"
...To which they responded:
"By definition it would not be considered a bicycle since it has four
wheels. Since it has four wheels and no motive power it does not seem
to fit into any definitions under state law. It is suggested that you
contact your local law enforcement agency to determine if the rules for
your area and the Burke-Gilman Trail would allow for the operation of
your quad cycle.
Thank you for your inquiry.
Sincerely,
Equipment
RCW 46.04.071
Bicycle.
"Bicycle" means every device propelled solely by human power upon which
a person or persons may ride, having two tandem wheels either of which
is sixteen inches or more in diameter, or three wheels, any one of which
is more than twenty inches in diameter."
They also sent me some .pdf files from the official website: (attached).
I think there may be some potential to register something like the Streetfighter as a Neighborhood Electric Vehicle (max speed 25 mph) or Medium Speed Electric Vehicle (max speed 35 mph plus crush-proof body and roll bar). Either would need to be built to handle the weight of the added equipment common to both that are required as well: Motor, battery pack & associated electronics, headlamps, tail lamps, reflectors, mirrors, turn signals, etc. The finished product would probably weigh well over 100 pounds, but I consider that ultralight for a licenseable electric vehicle. I Don't know if you could get away with both electric motor and HPV pedals in this case.
The equipment requirements wouldn't be that hard to add. What would be hard is to meet the requirement that the vehicle "meet the federal requirements for that type of vehicle and be certified
by the manufacturer to meet those standards."
I guess the sixty four dollar question is, since you or I are the manufacturers, how would we certify that the vehicle meets the standards?
AtomicZombie
07-23-2008, 01:10 AM
Let me simplify their answer to you...
Buddy, stop being a freak and either purchase a normal roadbike from WallyWorld, or drive a big honkin' SUV like everyone else!
Oops, did I rant?
I just think it's ironic that some gorilla-welder grease monkey can fuse together a sputtering harley and a crusty old WV bug and legally hit the streets without any trouble, yet you cannot on your human powered, environmentally friendly vehicle which weighs half as much as the toolkit Billybob needs to carry on his flying death trap.
Doh, there I go again!
Brad
Locutus
07-23-2008, 01:12 AM
Sorry, I couldn't get the .pdf files to upload. If you want them, private message me and I'll email them to you. Note: they're large files.
Locutus
07-23-2008, 01:22 AM
"By definition it would not be considered a bicycle since it has four
wheels. Since it has four wheels and no motive power it does not seem
to fit into any definitions under state law. It is suggested that you
contact your local law enforcement agency to determine if the rules for
your area and the Burke-Gilman Trail would allow for the operation of
your quad cycle.
Another way to intepret this quote may be that since the quad cycle "does not seem to fit into any definitions under state law," perhaps that means there is no law specifically prohibiting its use on public roads. But I wouldn't want to have to try to talk myself out of a citation from Officer Friendly on that basis alone.
Might have to take this up with my state representative.
Sparky
07-23-2008, 12:47 PM
'tis better to ask forgiveness than permission.
and
to seek permission is to seek denial.
i think the novelty of the streetfighter would keep you out of trouble, even if it was not really 100% in accordance with laws.
case in point- legally, all cars have to have fenders, bumpers, and turn signals. but think of all the old hot rods and street rods that dont have any of those. same is true with trailers- supposed to have liscense plates and turn signals. alot of em dont. or they dont work.
sure, officer "im having a bad day" smith might give you some jazz, but personally i wouldnt worry about it.
n9viw
07-23-2008, 01:20 PM
Ditto Sparky. I think you're spot on with the "since there's no law DEFINING it, there's no law PROHIBITING it. If they give you flak about "four wheels means it's a car," tell them, "No, it's just two bicycles welded together." :D Would nine friends out for a group ride qualify as an eighteen-wheeler, with all the restrictions inherent in such a vehicle? NO! :p It's just a quike, get over it.
Just to tweak nips, I'd figure out a way to make a sex-cycle: six-wheeled cycle. Or have odd numbers of wheels, just to throw them off. They don't have to do anything, apart from look like a Dr. Seuss sketch.
TheKid
07-23-2008, 01:43 PM
I called the NY State DMV when I built my quad. I was told that there are no laws that pertain to 4 wheeled HPV's. Hence, as long as it's strictly human powered, it is not illegal. However, both the vehicle and the rider must conform to the bicycle laws in regard to safety equipment and rules of the road. There's one guy with a fully faired quad who told me he occasionally gets stopped when he has the fairing installed, by cops looking for a motor, but he never received a summons.
Locutus
07-23-2008, 01:47 PM
More research--The federal motor vehicle safety regs define a motor vehicle thusly:
"Motor vehicle means any vehicle, machine, tractor, trailer, or semitrailer propelled or drawn by mechanical power and used upon the highways in the transportation of passengers or property, or any combination thereof determined by the Federal Motor Carrier Safety Administration, but does not include any vehicle, locomotive, or car operated exclusively on a rail or rails, or a trolley bus operated by electric power derived from a fixed overhead wire, furnishing local passenger transportation similar to street-railway service."
So under the federal guidelines, the number of wheels is irrelevant, and the propulsion just needs to be mechanical power, not necessarily an engine or a motor, which could be interpreted to include pedal power, which includes bicycles.
Locutus
07-23-2008, 02:30 PM
Just to tweak nips, I'd figure out a way to make a sex-cycle: six-wheeled cycle. Or have odd numbers of wheels, just to throw them off. They don't have to do anything, apart from look like a Dr. Seuss sketch.
Put training wheels on one of the back wheels. Presto: Sex-cycle. :D
HAHAHAHAHA--cough-cough!! Ahem-phew! Okay I'm done. Sorry about that.
AtomicZombie
07-23-2008, 04:22 PM
A skateboard is another human powered 4 wheeler!
Brad
Richie Rich
07-23-2008, 10:25 PM
I wonder what Officer Smiley would think of this one.....
(Seen in Boston, MA last Summer).
....Richie....
.
AtomicZombie
07-24-2008, 03:44 AM
Like all goodly written laws - the more you read, the less you understand!
If I am ever pulled over by "the man" on my StreetFighter, I will just claim that I cannot get up from the seat as this is not a bike, but a mobility device!
Brad
trikeman
07-24-2008, 07:50 AM
Like all goodly written laws - the more you read, the less you understand!
If I am ever pulled over by "the man" on my StreetFighter, I will just claim that I cannot get up from the seat as this is not a bike, but a mobility device!
Brad
I generally just shuffle a lot and act very subservient when pulled over by the man, and never carry illegal substances in my vehicle. Still I found this video from the ACLU to be interesting on what to do in police encounters. I am not sure I would have the nerve to do what they recommend. The video is pretty long (45 mins).
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yqMjMPlXzdA
I am also not sure what the laws are in Canada, so it might not be good advice there.
jimFPU
07-24-2008, 08:47 AM
Hey RR, now that's a tadpole!!! Wonder how it handles with all the cranks behind the front wheels...? LOL!
theTman
08-04-2008, 06:30 PM
I wonder what Officer Smiley would think of this one.....
(Seen in Boston, MA last Summer).
....Richie....
.
that reminds me of something in minneapolis called the pedal pub
http://farm1.static.flickr.com/205/441942516_cc78910775.jpg
it was invented in amsterdam, and i think you can drink and pedal there, while a sober driver steers. in minneapolis you can't drink alcohol on it yet, but they are going to try to make it legal, like the party buses and limosines which allow passengers to drink on the road.
TheKid
08-04-2008, 07:19 PM
I hope it doesn't rain. Not so much for the people on the stools, they won't know if it's raining or not.
gbbwolf
08-04-2008, 10:57 PM
I hope it doesn't rain. Not so much for the people on the stools, they won't know if it's raining or not.
They may know, but they won't care.
Nelson
Locutus
10-10-2008, 08:01 PM
Here's an update in my saga of dealing with the State of Washington, and now also State Farm Insurance. I've been trying to figure out how AZ designs fit into this scheme of things, to help me decide what to build.
I sent the Equipment dept. of the DOT this query:
Hello.
It's been a few months since I last wrote you, and now I've revised my plans to build a two or three wheeled electrically assisted pedal vehicle. Since my commute is 21 miles each way, I need an average speed in excess of 21 MPH, with a maximum sustainable speed probably at least 35 MPH, in order to do the commute in under one hour each way. I could do this a couple of ways. First, I could build an integrated vehicle, meaning that the batteries, motor, and foot crank pedals would all be on board. Alternatively, I could build an unpowered, pedal only vehicle, and attach an electric powered pusher trailer to the back of the vehicle. Since I need speed that is in excess of the 20 MPH limit imposed on E-bikes, I need to know how such a vehicle would be classified, whether I would need to get it registered and licensed, and whether any special equipment (lights, signals, horn, etc.) is required.
Before you answer, please have a look at the projects I'm considering,
all from Atomic Zombie Extreme Machines, http://www.atomiczombie.com
Delta Runner trike http://www.atomiczombie.com/product-deltarunner.htm
Meridian Recumbent bike http://www.atomiczombie.com/product-meridian.htm
Tourmaster LWB http://www.atomiczombie.com/product-tourmaster.htm
Delta Wolf Speed Trike http://www.atomiczombie.com/product-deltawolf.htm
Street Fox Tadpole Trike http://www.atomiczombie.com/product-streetfox.htm
Out of these, the Delta Runner is the best suited to adding the bulk and
weight of Batteries, controller and electric motor. However, depending
on insurance and legal concerns, I may need to build an electric pusher
trailer instead of installing the electrics on the vehicle itself. That's where
the Cycle Bully comes in:
http://www.atomiczombie.com/product-cyclebully.htm
(Notice the hub motor on the wheel itself.)
I guess what I'm driving at is: Is a 35 MPH electrically assisted bike
or trike like the ones linked to above legally viable? If so, what special
requirements apply? If not, can I get around that by attaching the Cycle Bully
trailer to the back of an unpowered bike or trike?
...To which they replied as follows:
Any three wheeled vehicle that travels faster than 20 mph with a gas powered
engine or electric propulsion must meet the requirements and be
licensed as either a moped or a motorcycle depending on how fast it is
traveling in order to be legally driven in the state of Washington.
Attached for your convenience are documents which outline the
requirements for mopeds and motorcycles in Washington State. In order
for the vehicle to be considered street legal it would need to be
certified by the manufacturer as meeting all of the Federal Motor
Vehicle Safety Standards for a moped/motorcycle. If the vehicle does
meet these requirements then you would be able to license it as a moped
or motorcycle and operate it on the roadway so long as it is licensed
for street use and the operator has the proper license/endorsement.
They also send two .pdf files of pertinent regulations. If you're interested in reading these, PM your email address to me and I'll send them to you.
They didn't fully answer some of my questions, so I followed up with this:
1. Is a trailer considered part of the vehicle? If the power is on the
trailer and not the bike/trike itself, do the same rules apply?
2. Are the certification requirements the same for homebuilt
bikes/trikes? If so, I would be the manufacturer. As an individual and not a
business, how would I go about certifying the bike/trike as a moped or motorcycle?
...To which they responded:
1. No a trailer would not be considered a part of a vehicle. However
if the trailer itself is powered by an engine or electric propulsion,
then it would also not be considered a trailer. By definition, a
trailer is designed to be drawn. By making it motive you would
essentially be making it, in and of itself, into a vehicle which would
not comply with standards.
2. Yes, if a vehicle is homemade you as the manufacturer would have to
certify that the equipment on your vehicle meets the requirements. In
the state of Washington any homemade vehicle will require an inspection
prior to licensing. This inspection is not a safety inspection. During
the inspection officers will be checking your receipts/titles for any
major component parts of the vehicle for their legality.
All parts used must be originally manufactured for street use and meet
the state and federal standards. If parts meet these standards they are
usually stamped with USDOT approved or something similar. If you are
unsure if it meets federal standards, you can contact the manufacturer
directly to find out.
Information about the inspection process and links to the inspection
schedule and contact information can be found on our Web site at
http://www.wsp.wa.gov/traveler/vinspect.htm.
So there you have it. In Washington state, it's pretty cut and dry that your vehicle has to be inspected, certified, registered and licensed as either a moped or motorcycle if it is both powered by anything other than your body and can travel at speeds greater than 20 MPH. It must comply with and be certified to meet State and Federal regulations for approved equipment for moped or motorcycle. A push trailer like the Cyclebully would not legally get around these requirements.
Now, on to insurance. State Farm is one of the better companies out there, and covers auto, casualty, home and life. Pretty standard coverage compared to the other big insurance outfits. After talking to my my agent of many years about it, I sent him this email, which includes his responses.
Thanks for taking the time to chat with me today. To summarize, my goal is to build a two or three wheeled pedal powered vehicle with electric assist, that will enable to me to ride the 21 miles to work in less than one hour, while simultaneously giving me a decent cardiovascular workout, and still leave me with enough energy to do my job. This will require an average speed greater than 21 MPH, and probably a sustainable top speed in varying terrain of at least 35 MPH.
A typical example of an off-the-shelf e-bike is the Ezip Trailz, available at Joe's Sporting Goods:
http://www.joessports.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2992934&cp=713103.2137909&parentPage=family
Unfortunately, while this bike is legal to ride without registration or licence plates, it does not meet my needs as stated above. So I've been looking into alternatives. This led me to Atomic Zombie Extreme Machines. http://www.atomiczombie.com
There are a lot of great designs at Atomic Zombie, so choosing the one that best suits my needs is difficult, to say the least. For one thing, I need to comply with state law, and for another, I need to be able to get insurance coverage. With the speed and power limits imposed by law on electric assist bicycles and tricycles, I may need to get a more powerful and faster vehicle licensed as a moped. However, one possibility I'm looking into is to build an unpowered cycle, and attach an electrically powered trailer that would would give the main vehicle a "push." Don't know yet how the State will view such a combination, or State Farm for that matter. Here are some of the vehicles I'm considering building, from most likely first to least likely last:
Delta Runner trike http://www.atomiczombie.com/product-deltarunner.htm
Meridian Recumbent bike http://www.atomiczombie.com/product-meridian.htm
Tourmaster LWB http://www.atomiczombie.com/product-tourmaster.htm
Delta Wolf Speed Trike http://www.atomiczombie.com/product-deltawolf.htm
Street Fox Tadpole Trike http://www.atomiczombie.com/product-streetfox.htm
Out of these, the Delta Runner is the best suited to adding the bulk and weight of Batteries, controller and electric motor. However, depending on insurance and legal concerns, I may need to build an electric pusher trailer. That's where the Cycle Bully comes in:
http://www.atomiczombie.com/product-cyclebully.htm
(Notice the hub motor on the wheel itself.)
So in a nutshell, I need to know what the insurance implications are of these various combinations:
1. You already told me that an unpowered version would fall under my homeowner insurance. YES
2. How would an electrically powered version with top speed of 35 MPH be insured? Can't be insured under your homeowners policy since it's "motorized;" Can't be insured w/Auto company if it's a "bicycle" (only manufactured mopeds and motorcycles are eligible for on-road coverage).
3. How would an unpowered version, but with a 35 MPH Cycle Bully push trailer attached be insured? Still considered "motorized" by Fire Co; Auto can insure only trailers that are "pulled" and NOT motorized.
4. For insurance purposes, does registration and licensing any of the above vehicles or power combinations matter in getting coverage? It's not a factor. This will be between you and WA State.
Sorry, as you can see, insurance companies like "ordinary" and "tried and true." They're not very good with new ideas and innovation -- no matter how good they are. The only time they'll pay attention is if a large number of people demand coverage for the vehicles you're considering. Until that time, you will have to scramble for coverage and, if you can find it, premiums will be very high, I suspect.
The only item in Limbo is the under-20MPH electric assist bike, but I suspect that would fall under "moped" for insurance purposes. The insurance company would probably only cover a factory built one at that.
So to summarize, in Washington State (and I'm sure most other states are similar since they follow the federal regulations), if you want to be legal and insured, it looks like these are your options:
1. Ride an unpowered HPV (bike or trike). It doesn't matter whether it's upright, recumbent or enclosed. Speed is not an issue. Covered automatically under your homeowner's policy, if you have one.
2. Buy a factory-built electric or gas assisted (under 20mph) bicycle. Try to get it covered under a moped or motorcycle policy.
3. Buy a factory-built moped or motorcycle. Getting it insured shoudn't be a problem.
4. Go through the red tape and hassle of getting your build inspected, certified, registered and licensed as a moped (top speed under 30 MPH) or a motorcycle (no speed capability restriction). Then hope you can get a motorcycle insurance policy.
Unfortunately, there doesn't seem to be any place for the Cycle Bully push trailer in this scheme of things. And while you may be able to fly "under the radar" for a while, it may eventually come back to haunt you. And I'm not even talking about citations from Officer Friendly. Suppose you're riding an illegal or unlicensed powered bike/trike, or are using the Cycle Bully at speeds over 20 MPH and you get in an accident with another vehicle or worse, a pedestrian. Assuming you survive the crash yourself, everything you own could be at risk, including your freedom. I'm talking civil and criminal liability.
That said, I think that if one is willing to jump through all the required hoops, a powered version of some of the AZ designs could be licensed and insured, and would make great little earth-friendly commuter vehicles.
.
.
Sparky
10-10-2008, 09:00 PM
blast the regulations. build it and ride it.
worst case scenario, things could be bad. VERY BAD. but im a bettin man, and i bet that "it wont happen to me"
course, they all say that until it does.
macka
10-11-2008, 01:13 AM
DMV stands for Dept. of Mental Vacation one of my favourite quotes from my truck driving days :D
steamboatm
10-12-2008, 12:57 PM
Has anyone checked into the regulations for Ontario, Canada?
Regards,
Gerald.
PS what would they say to a Steam Power assisted one?
blupe
10-12-2008, 08:12 PM
Has anyone checked into the regulations for Ontario, Canada?
Regards,
Gerald.
PS what would they say to a Steam Power assisted one?
Well, it would probably be approved by Burning Man's Dept. of Mutant Vehicles! :) (I don't know about anywhere else, despite having worked for about a year at the Wisconsin Division of Motor Vehicles. The rules for things like that are a real complex mess, IMHO.)
PeterT
10-11-2009, 12:05 AM
Just checked out the Australian Road Rules, and here are the legal definitions of bicycles, mopeds, for Australian Bikes
bicycle means a vehicle with 1 or more wheels that is built to be
propelled by human power through a belt, chain or gears (whether or not
it has an auxiliary motor), and:
(a) includes a pedicab, penny-farthing, scooter, tricycle and
unicycle; but
(b) does not include a wheelchair, wheeled recreational device,
wheeled toy, or any vehicle with an auxiliary motor capable of
generating a power output over 200 watts (whether or not the
motor is operating).
Note Vehicle is defined in rule 15, and wheelchair, wheeled recreational device
and wheeled toy are defined in this dictionary.
motor bike means a motor vehicle with 2 wheels, and includes:
(a) a 2-wheeled motor vehicle with a sidecar attached to it that is
supported by a third wheel; and
(b) a motor vehicle with 3 wheels that is ridden in the same way as
a motor vehicle with 2 wheels.
motor vehicle means a vehicle that is built to be propelled by a motor
that forms part of the vehicle.
wheeled recreational device means a wheeled device, built to transport a
person, propelled by human power or gravity, and ordinarily used for
recreation or play, and:
(a) includes rollerblades, rollerskates, a skateboard or similar
wheeled device; but
(b) does not include a golf buggy, pram, stroller or trolley, or a
bicycle, wheelchair or wheeled toy.
Note Bicycle, trolley, wheelchair and wheeled toy are defined in this dictionary.
wheeled toy means a child’s pedal car, scooter or tricycle or a similar toy,
but only when it is being used only by a child who is under 12 years old.
A vehicle includes:
(a) a motor vehicle, trailer and tram; and
(b) a bicycle; and
(c) an animal-drawn vehicle, and an animal that is being
ridden or drawing a vehicle; and
(d) a combination; and
(e) a motorised wheelchair that can travel at over
10 kilometres per hour (on level ground);
but does not include another kind of wheelchair, a train, or a
wheeled recreational device or wheeled toy.
Note Various terms mentioned in this rule are defined in the dictionary.
PeterT
Danner
10-11-2009, 08:43 AM
PeterT,
Those Aus Road Rules seem that they at least put a bit more thought and common sense into it than what I've seen and heard in the States so far...
Locutus,
I've been looking into this in Michigan as well. The Michigan Vehicle Code section 257.4 defines "bicycle" as:
" ...a device propelled by human power upon which a person may ride, having either 2 or 3 wheels in a tandem or tricycle arrangement, all of which are over 14 inches in diameter."
I don't have the definitions for other types of vehicles or recreational devices, tho.
All this is starting to spoil my fun...
.
PeterT
10-11-2009, 08:51 AM
Build your ride, and then when you get questioned about it, let them answer it according to their definition of a bi/tri/quad-cycle!
Actually because you have two people pedaling, you can argue that it is two single bicycles with a common union so that you can assist each other with the pedaling! :jester:
PeterT
John Lewis
10-11-2009, 08:54 AM
Interesting Peter,
I note our West Aussi rules follow the Aust standard with some variations. They have a max width for a bike of 660mm. That's a problem for a sociable tandem. But two bikes may ride two abreast with a metre between them legally. that's 660 twice plus the metre. Total 1720 mm about 67 inches or 5ft 7ins. I wonder if I can claim the Kyoto I'm building is really two bikes joined. I'm going to use that argument if I'm challenged. Four wheels I think get a mention and are acceptable but I'd need to check to be sure.
John Lewis
PeterT
10-11-2009, 09:24 AM
Those are the Australian legal definitions, & I am in the process of checking SA's definitions.
SA's definitions are these;
Riding two abreast is legal.
DEFINITION OF A BICYCLE
A bicycle is classified under the Australian Road Rules as being
any two or more wheeled vehicle that is built to be propelled by
human power through a belt, chain or gears (whether or not it
has an auxiliary motor), and:
includes a pedicab, penny-farthing and tricycle but
does not include a wheelchair, wheeled recreational device,
wheeled toy, or any vehicle with an auxiliary motor capable
of generating a power output over 200 watts (whether or not
the motor is operating).
A bicycle is a legitimate road vehicle, which must be properly
maintained so that it does not present any danger to the rider or
other road users. Bicycles must meet mandatory Australia
Design Standards before they can be offered for sale and any
modifications completed after the original purchase need to be
consistent with the relevant Australian Design Standards.
DIMENSIONS OF BICYCLES
A person must not ride a bicycle on a road unless it complies
with the following requirements:
The handlebars must be of equal width on either side of the
centre line of the bicycle and must be at least 400
millimetres wide, but no more than 700 millimetres wide.
They must not extend more than 300 millimetres above the
lowest part of the upper surface of the seat.
The front axle must not be more than 250 millimetres
forward from the centre of where the head stem enters the
front tube of the frame.
The overall width of any equipment or load carried on a
bicycle must not exceed 700 millimetres.
If you are unsure about the dimensions of your bicycle, your local
bicycle shop should be able to provide assistance.
TRAILERS
You may want to use your bicycle to tow a trailer in order to carry
a passenger or goods. This section describes a number of
restrictions for trailers.
The attachment device (coupling) used to join the trailer to your
bicycle must:
permit adequate angular movement between bicycle
and trailer
be sufficiently strong to prevent the bicycle and trailer
coming apart
have a safety connection such as a safety chain, that:
– is sufficient to hold the trailer in the event that the
coupling comes apart
– will not easily or accidentally come apart and
– permits normal movement without more slack than
necessary for that purpose.
You must not tow:
A bicycle trailer carrying a person unless you are 16 years old
or older and the passenger is less than 10 years old. The
bicycle trailer must be able to carry the passenger safely
and he or she must wear an approved helmet.
More than one bicycle trailer at a time and any equipment or
load on the trailer must not exceed 850 millimetres in width.
A trailer must be fitted with two reflectors, which must be
between 330 millimetres and 1000 millimetres from the ground.
They must be fitted to the rear, evenly spaced either side of the
trailer and on the same level.
If travelling between sunset and sunrise, either one or two red
lights must also be fitted to the rear of the trailer. If one light is
fitted, it must be placed at the right hand side of the centre of
the trailer. If two lights are fitted, they must be evenly spaced
either side of the centre of the trailer at the same level. In either
case, the light(s) must be between 330 millimetres and 1000
millimetres from the ground.
What is a power-assisted bicycle?
A power assisted bicycle is a pedal cycle with a motor attached to help the rider. The attached motor (or motors) may provide up to 200 Watts of assistance.
Road rules for power-assisted bicycles
Riders do not require a driver’s licence, motor vehicle registration or compulsory third party insurance.
Riders are bound by the same rules as other bicycles, including the need for the rider to wear a helmet and the power-assisted bicycle to have:
* effective brakes
* a bell, or other audible warning device
* a rear-facing red reflector at night
* a white light to the front and a red light to the rear at night (both may flash) clearly visible from at least 200 metres.
Differences between a power-assisted bicycle and a motorcycle
At first glance some motorbikes with pedals look similar to power-assisted bicycles. The main differences are speed, pedal crank spacing, weight, seat position, seat shape and gearing.
A good rule of thumb is that if the main means of propulsion is by pedal power and the motor produces 200 Watts or less then it is a power-assisted pedal cycle.
If the main source of power is the motor then it is a motor vehicle and operating it requires a driver’s licence, registration and compulsory third party insurance.
Lunas'Harold
10-11-2009, 12:27 PM
There is a lot of good info here. It is my personal expierance that a cop (believe it or not) is human, just like the rest of us. Being curtiuse and polite will go a long way when it comes to cops looking over a rather differant kind of contraption that they have neither seen nor heard of before.
"Build it and they will come". Remember that all builders have had to go against the grain of conventional thinking. After all, if the curage of the likes of Henry Ford, and others were to knuckle under to "the man" in their days. Would the world be hooked on a substance called oil? Or for that matter be able to even get a speeding ticket for going faster than 40 mph? Exept maybe in a down hill rolling wagon.
Just a ex flower power's humble opion,
Lunas'Harold
Locutus
10-11-2009, 02:53 PM
After riding the Street Fox around for a while (and after debating the pros and cons of quad vs. tadpole trike for some time prior to building it), I have to conclude that a well-designed tadpole trike has several advantages over quads, at least as applied to single rider designs. For starters, it completely eliminates any concern over road legality. Secondly, the drive train is vastly simplified compared to a quad. Third, aerodynamics are better with a tadpole, especially with a full tapered fairing like with velomobiles. Fourth, less rolling resistance with three wheels compared to four. Fifth, the tadpole would be lighter in weight. Any advantage in rollover stability a quad might inherently have can be compensated for in a tadpole by optimizing track and rider position.
I recently ran into a fellow who built a tadpole motor vehicle and licence it under Washington State's brand new classification of "reverse trike." He told me he was the first in the state to do so. I posted a picture before but here it is again:
http://memimage.cardomain.com/ride_images/1/2586/3661/6464330106_medium.jpg
Here's more on it if you're interested, from his web pages:
http://www.cardomain.com/ride/646433/5
http://www.cardomain.com/ride/646433/6