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Skut_monkey
09-13-2014, 07:14 AM
Hi guys

been looking into a diy e scooter to get me to work every day as its cheaper than running my van

its only a 3 mile commute both ways through industrial estates so not too bad, the plan is get the parts and build the frame around it ( im a fabricator/welder so design and build is not the issue)

i need to know the following to get my plan underway

batteries

im a big bloke ( 6"2 ex bouncer so quite a weight to carry) i need plenty of power and cheaper is better with the mrs

motor
im a bit of a power freak from my cars over the years so its got to have a powerful motor ( going chain drive to mini moto wheels on the rear so i can adjust gearing for speed or acceleration). Im not worried about legal limits, it just wants to have a good top end speed

controller

erm..... Yeah, im a welder, not an electrical genius, simple controller with a twist throttle to regulate power to max, recommendations please?




Thats all i need to know,
the overview is a cross country capable e scooter with ridiculous power for dirt races with a few mates, so long as its fast enough or stupid enough to do something silly, then im all for it

Cheers

darnthedog
09-13-2014, 08:27 AM
Welcome to the fun Skut_monkey
Batteries will depend on your buget. Lighter, longer range batteries cost more. Lithium provide the best bang for the buck as they are lighter and provide better range. Realize the batteries have to provide the power to carry themselves as well as vehicle and passenger. So the less they weigh and more power they provide the long they last.
The Lead ones will get you the the 6 mile round trip range without an issue. But become quite the workout if you running out of power. Emma aka Twinkle in UK has been working alot with powering streetfoxes she has been building. Check out some of her posts to see her suppliers of Electric motors. She really like the Gear wheel motors as they don't require any fancy jack shafts or additional gearing. The E-style and the long ranger were designed with wheel motors as they have become increasingly available for bikes.
But feel free to to choose any method you desire. Have fun.

Twinkle
09-13-2014, 08:58 AM
Hi Skut Monkey

Chain reaction has a front brushless motor (special offer in hubs ) that is designed for 24v and 700c wheels at under £35 delivered , throttle brakes and controller
add £50 and 36 volts battery will give you 20 + mph on 20" wheels , Build it into the front of a bmx with batteries in the centre of the frame .
With the right controller you could go 48 v on this motor 25 mph plus
That would become one serious piece of illegal kit ( 250watt 15 mph 60kg is the legal limit EAPC regulations )

48 v at 18 amps = 900 watt !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!




regards emma

Skut_monkey
09-13-2014, 09:19 AM
Thanks for the info so far peeps

Im not worries about the power, think - battery goped on serious steroids because the trip to work is though some small alleyways and i rarely see anyone on the estate due to my work hours

power vs legality isnt something i worry about as i wont be speeding through town centres etc
i work long hours so pedestrians wont be a problem, its parking once i finish work, hence the psycho scooter idea


the plan is a mini moto rear end and swingarm, that takes care of gearing, transfering power to the wheel and rear brake system

Tubular frame or light box section braced for strength or possibly use a classic bmx scooter and add the battery box underneath, longer forks and add the minimoto rear chassis

the other aspect is offroad fun and general pratting about

so........ Whats the best 48v motor for the cost?
battery types and prices ( i have no idea what im looking for)
twist throttle controller and electrics that will give me full power if i need it

thanks for everythingso far

twinkle..... Thanks for the hub motor idea but i need this to be rear wheel drive with the axle and drivewheels i already have in my parts bin

Twinkle
09-13-2014, 09:41 AM
4 x12 v 12 AH £80 ebay ish 48v lithium £300

Motor depends there are not any " standard motors " either you go for a midi drive , the moto chain is just one of your little opportunities . either run a my1018 brushed motor but that wont give you the power

another idea is build a rear wheel with a BMS q100 motor these have a disc mount - see the bms website


regard emma

We need to know a bit more , and YOU need to do a lot more research as your Idea will become a lot of aggravation for you

Skut_monkey
09-13-2014, 09:45 AM
So you say 25 mph is possible on a bmx sized rim

i could re-engineer the back end to take it without any headaches

i might sit down tonight and have a good look around the net for ideas and prices

thanks so far

darnthedog
09-13-2014, 11:37 AM
Check out YouTube for thrilling BMX size electric bikes with wheel motors. At 72 volts they really go insanely fast. Not that I am push you to go insanely fast. But it will give you some idea as to how fast fast can be on bicycles.

Popshot
09-13-2014, 12:55 PM
I've occasionally had thoughts in this sort of area and was contemplating using a mid drive (motor attached to a geared wheel by a chain) myself. You essentially have a choice of brushed motors or brushless. They require different controllers with brushless being far more complex. Google a picture of each type to see the extra wires of the brushless. If you want to keep it simple use the mini moto rear and a brushed 1000W 48v motor such as this http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Electric-E-scooter-48-volt-1000-watt-Motor-/231327571601?pt=UK_Sporting_Goods_Scooters_LE&hash=item35dc329e91 . It's worth pointing out that bigger wheels will generally be more stable though. Your biggest cost will be batteries. Sealed Lead Acid ought to last your trip and will be the cheapest option. Lithium batteries offer much more range but at a high cost and require special chargers. There's a forum for modified scooters here http://forum.modifiedelectricscooters.com/viewforum.php?f=9&sid=599a1b7d5bbe2639cdb3dbf8cf0bbb66 though some of the discussions get very technical.

Skut_monkey
09-13-2014, 02:27 PM
Mid drive is what im looking at, theres a guy in greece who got a mountain bike to 80 using a pair of mid drive motors but using one will be quick enough to start with

im looking at his kits to see of i can hack it around a touch but its giving me a good idea on what to look for

i know im looking for a minimum 48v 1500 - 2000w mid drive motor and a bank of li-ion batteries mounted in a rubber lined box.
motor mounts will be engineered as i go

ken will
09-13-2014, 02:48 PM
im a big bloke ( 6"2 ex bouncer so quite a weight to carry) i need plenty of power
im a bit of a power freak from my cars over the years so its got to have a powerful motor ( going chain drive to mini moto wheels on the rear so i can adjust gearing for speed or acceleration). Im not worried about legal limits, it just wants to have a good top end speed

the overview is a cross country capable e scooter with ridiculous power for dirt races with a few mates, so long as its fast enough or stupid enough to do something silly, then im all for it

Cheers

http://www.electricmotorsport.com/ev-parts/motors/brushed-motors/me0909-pmdc-motor-12-48v-4-hp-cont-12-8-hp-pk.html

Twinkle
09-13-2014, 02:56 PM
i know im looking for a minimum 48v 1500 - 2000w mid drive motor and a bank of li-ion batteries mounted in a rubber lined box.
motor mounts will be engineered as i go

50v x 40a = 2kw you will be hard pressed to find batteries that will give you that sort of power in 48 v you will need to go up more to reduce your current -

I think you are starting to dream beyond the realms of technology unless you have a very large budget and you dont tell the misses how much you are going to invest

Popshot
09-13-2014, 02:57 PM
15,000w!!! That's 20HP in old money!!! OK only for 30 seconds but by that time you'll be so knackered holding on you'll want a rest.:)

darnthedog
09-13-2014, 06:23 PM
Here is one video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mp0QBkn300A

Then there is this 5000W system to add to a BMX bike. See this Video:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XjZ4V2hVT_Q

The website is : http://www.hi-powercycles.com/ Which has mid drive kit and wheel kits that bolt on.

Being in California, USA I'm affraid you'll deal with Import fee and such being in the UK. And talk about illegal fun.

Skut_monkey
09-14-2014, 06:10 AM
Im not worried about import costs, sometimes you get them, sometimes you don't


Having a proper look at my design on paper the only issues i have found in my drawings is using a hub motor on a 20"rim will cause me ground clearance issues or add more weight with a re engineered swingarm and bracing to suit
with the minimoto setup there will be no ground clearance problems and i can build another swingarm if needed

im leaning towards a cyclone mid drive motor for ease of fitting and its pretty compact for what it is, controllers are easy to get for them so no major issues there

finding an affordable battery bank is a different matter. Lead acid will work but id like li ion,

off for another search engine session

Twinkle
09-14-2014, 08:04 AM
Having a proper look at my design on paper the only issues i have found in my drawings is using a hub motor on a 20"rim will cause me ground clearance issues or add more weight with a re engineered swingarm and bracing to suit


finding an affordable battery bank is a different matter. Lead acid will work but id like li ion,

off for another search engine session


Battery with charger

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/2014-48v-20ah-LiFePO4-Battery-5A-Charger-BMS-Electric-Scooter-Rechargeable-Power-/171430492561?pt=UK_ConsumerElectronics_Batteries_S M&hash=item27ea0db991

darnthedog
09-14-2014, 09:03 AM
Im not worried about import costs, sometimes you get them, sometimes you don't


Having a proper look at my design on paper the only issues i have found in my drawings is using a hub motor on a 20"rim will cause me ground clearance issues or add more weight with a re engineered swingarm and bracing to suit
with the minimoto setup there will be no ground clearance problems and i can build another swingarm if needed

im leaning towards a cyclone mid drive motor for ease of fitting and its pretty compact for what it is, controllers are easy to get for them so no major issues there

finding an affordable battery bank is a different matter. Lead acid will work but id like li ion,

off for another search engine session

I'm slightly confused here. A Minimoto has 6 to 10 inch wheels typically. A 20 inch wheel motor it twice as high. Thus in theory it should give you better ground clearance.

Are you building this or converting an existing frame?

If your building are you going to build from scratch or use existing parts? Like purchasing a swing arm for a Minimoto for example.

Placing the motor in the wheel verse the frame will assist in lowering the Center of gravity and reduce the sprung weight as the weight with stay to the ground verse being carried.

The other thing with the wheel motor is it is a wheel change out add some cables runs and your on the road. A mid drive motor has to be mounted to frame and a complex tie into the bottom bracket.

However if this is strictly a e-scooter without the aid of pedaling. Then go any way you desire. Another noted advantage for wheel motor over mid drive E-scooter will be no chain to fall off when your really cranking the voltage. As to fooling with gearing with E-scooter you fool with Voltage and controllers to increase amp and overall speed. The Rpm verses wheel size will control the meters per revolution. So the larger the wheel the more meters you cover every time the wheel spins a single revolution. Unlike gasoline motors where you have to play with gearing to adjust to the limits of the engines torque range an electric has 100 percent of it's capable torque from dead stop. Thus gearing is useless unless your going to pedal it. Then you are limited to the torque you can provide. Being somewhat of a speed freak myself I perform calculation a lot.

In the end, it is your build and we are only attempting to answer question based off limited information. We love photos so be sure to take some and post them as you build up your scooter.

bambuko
09-14-2014, 11:02 AM
All of this is of course totally an utterly illegal in UK if driven on a public road and potentially gives the rest of us bad name (joe public will not know the difference between legal and safe pedal assist bicycle and motorbike/moped/scooter).

You should read:
http://motorbicycling.com/showthread.php?t=43769

and
http://motorbicycling.com/showthread.php?t=26674

and/or:
http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~pattle/nacc/arc0497.htm

Of course, what you do on your own private land is your own business...
As for it being cheaper than running a van :cheesy: .... good luck

ps just because something is possible it's not necessarily sensible :rolleyes4:

Skut_monkey
09-14-2014, 01:51 PM
Easiest way to describe it is one of these
http://www.thinktrikes.com.au/image/data/Thinktrikes/Eurotrike/bluescooter.jpg

build a longer swingarm to hold the battery pack, motor and controller
put one of these in the rear
http://i.ebayimg.com/00/s/NTgxWDkyOA==/z/cLMAAOSwVZNTl0oN/$_35.JPG
Changing sprocket size will change the rate of acceleration vs too end speed
add the disc brake and caliper for safety

make a sprung chain tensioner to stop the chain possibly jumping off

tAke it to the track and have fun

i wont need to worry about speed vs the police, im a family man and the less grief i get from the law, the better it is. The only thing stopping it going fast will be me, so if i get pulled over, its ultimately my fault

i do, however, like the option of going quick where i can

the idea of using the minimoto rear end is ultimately keeping it looking like a regular scooter and not a jacked up mad max machine, i use my delica for that

darnthedog
09-14-2014, 03:23 PM
Have you checked out this post? http://forum.atomiczombie.com/showthread.php/9065-KIck-a-BMX?highlight=

go1000go aka Tim made this in a weekend or two with a used kid BMX bike. It would hold a wheel motor very nicely and the deck could be made to hold the battery pack. The minimoto reference daze and confused as this is what I saw: http://www.minimotousa.com/#!/page_home

What your really looking to build is a fat tire kick scooter using a Minimoto wheels. If your photo you post is and example.

In the Gallery there are several kick bikes examples. Some are using tubing some are modified kids bikes with 10 to 20 inch tires. Check them out in gallery under fun rides.

Hope that helps give you an idea of what has been done before. I can see why your not worried about the legality. Kick scooters are a totally different animal from a bike or trike as far as the laws go. And electric would make it very stealthy to point of no one would think twice about it.

Popshot
09-14-2014, 03:50 PM
Just for a size reference here's a 20" wheeled scooter I made earlier from a childs mountain bike. It wouldn't be hard to make a similar one with extra ground clearance. I'd choose a disc braked model in your place given your preference of power unit. Given your size a full sized 26" wheeled scooter wouldn't be unreasonable. If still wanting mid drive though then 20" or 26" would leave you needing either a geared motor or a jackshaft to get the gearing correct.
http://i1029.photobucket.com/albums/y354/verminhater/scooter_zps624ae63e.jpg

Skut_monkey
09-14-2014, 06:44 PM
That 20" setup looks ideal, i thought it would ride higher than that but i was mistaken.
The proportions look about right but i'd stretch it slightly for comfort and change the rake slightly on the front

im researching hub kits now, seeing as i wont have any pedals, would a front hub kit fitted to the rear work ok?

Popshot
09-15-2014, 02:33 AM
Front hub on rear will work fine but check the width of any hub. You may need spacers plus a longer axle or need to close the triangle to suit. Don't forget such donors have suspension designed for 5 stone kids. That scooter squatted considerably at the rear when in use even by a 12 year old changing the rake somewhat though in all honesty I did make it a bit too upright. In my defence I did spend all of 2 hours making it! It did float very well over rough ground though. One other thing to consider is feeding lots of power into a suspended wheel will have the effect of compressing the rear suspension. You'll need a rear shock much more suited to your weight and that power and will probably need to beef up the front suspension too.

Skut_monkey
09-15-2014, 05:30 AM
I wont be using a suspended rear end, but i'll sort the triangulation out as i go to beef it up

adjusting the rear to take the motor wont be an issue either

Skut_monkey
09-21-2014, 09:24 AM
Right, i have a preliminary design on paper, after going back over a few things, a hub motor will be the way to go ( thanks for the heads up on those twinkle) as much as i like the idea of a mid drive, i can always make a v2 design later on

just trying to figure out what motor will meet my needs in a 20 inch bmx front rim mounted on the back for daily cruising and offroad lunacy ( wont need a gear set as theres no pedals needed)

speed will be lowered for road use and commuting but ramped up for off road as a mate has decided on a build off to see whos is fastest on 20's

Batteries are sourced, need to work out what programmable controller i can use so i can adjust the top power and possibly limit speed if needed for the road

can anyone push me in the right direction with motors in 48 volt with a disc and calliper as theres so much on the market its frying my brain

i have a bmx in bits ready for the silent speedster treatment but without the seat (for now)

bits need to be in the uk for delivery speed but if it needs to come from china then i dont mind


Batteries will be 4 12 volt sealed gel batteries for now as its cheaper and thats a winner for me, i can go lifepo later on

Twinkle
09-22-2014, 08:38 AM
Petrol scooters in the UK have some low cost hubs and controllers 48v 500 watt these are 26" wheel versions so 20 mph with a bit mot torque in a 20" wheel , or you overrun a 36v motor to 48v , 328 rpm will give 25mph
But sla batteries will not last long 12 ah at one hour rating 7ah .
Regards Emma

Skut_monkey
09-22-2014, 12:56 PM
I know sla batteries wont last long but its a cheap start and a good learning curve
im going for gel batteries as i can get them at a good price

will check out the hubs when i get home

thanks