a few questions on the vigilante

[theTman]

i was wondering how difficult it would be to incorperate a multiple gear setup into the vigilante for someone who's only knowledge of gears and chains is how to put them back on when they come off. would it be difficult due to custom angles in the frame, or can it be adjusted to work as long as you have the right chain length and mounting holes? Having a multi speed vigilante would be ideal because i do encounter hills even in town. also, about how much do they weigh on average? my current Magna bike weighs a wopping 41 lbs, but it is a 21 speed. is it possible to find square aluminum tubing for a decent price, and is it easy for a begginer to weld? sometime this coming school year i will hopefully be in 2 welding classes. arc and oxyacetelene, and mig and tig welding classes.

[savarin]

Welding aluminium is easy with the right equipment and once you have been taught correctly and have had plenty and plenty of practice.
Dont even think about it until you have tried at school (for nothing) it will save heaps of heartache.
The correct equipment is expensive which is why most of us use steel that is easy to master within a very short time.
It is possible to use:- ally rods but is a bit hit and miss, ally wire in a mig unit (with the right gas), gas weld but harder to master, tig is the best way.
Aluminium in any profile is also expensive although to judge from recent posts steel is catching up fast.
From a weight perspective it often comes out heavier than a steel frame due to thicker sections required for strength.
Do a web search for bicycle maintenance and read all you can, try the local library for same books, get a heap of no cost clunkers and start taking apart to find out how they fit together and in next to no time you will be ready to build your own.
good luck on the journey, it gets addictive.

[AtomicZombie]

It may be difficult to add gears to this design, although not impossible with a little hacking. It might be easier to just use a smaller front chainring and stay in a lower gear most of the time.

Brad

[theTman]

i think i will stick to steel then. also, how much does an AC arc welder and an angle grinder cost? my dad doesn't want me to do this project because he thinks getting those 2 tools will cost way too much to be worth it. He thinks that it will cost enough to have to wait until i own a car. the thing is, by the time i get enough driving experience on my permit at the rate i'm going, if i get a weekday part time job over the school year i would imagine i would have more than enough for an ok starter car, and the necessarry equipment and supplies. also, atomiczombie, how much does the vigilante you built weigh? If it is light enough and i can give it multiple gears, it may become my main bike for longer rides as well. my current bike is quite heavy already, and is having issues due to it being a magna bike lol. and what kind of wheel is used on the vigilante pictured on the site? looks too narrow for a car. maybe a motorcycle?

[AtomicZombie]

Welder, grinder, safety gear.......................... $300-$500
Skills learned by building your own bikes.......... $priceless

So what I am getting at here is that for half the cost of a game console, you will be making a good investment in your skills and fitness!

Brad

[theTman]

i have an idea! i could weld the rear hub of a mountainbike to the right side as the hub on that side, and then fit a derailer on it and set it up. i can figure it out. i think.

[theTman]

Welder, grinder, safety gear.......................... $300-$500
Skills learned by building your own bikes.......... $priceless

So what I am getting at here is that for half the cost of a game console, you will be making a good investment in your skills and fitness!

Brad

i will have to see how my finances look when the time comes, but my neighbor that we are friends with has a heated polebarn garage, and he does alot of extensive work, like fixing up a pinto after it was in a derby. i will have to see if he would let me use it once i learn in school.

[n9viw]

Good call.

Scour the local ads, Craigslist and whatnot, and look for a used arc welder. I often see smaller units going for less than $100. A generic angle grinder with flap and grinding disks will run $20-30, but will have decreased longetivity as compared to a more expensive (read: not made in China) unit.

Borrowing the use of a welder is MUCH less expensive than owning one, particularly if you're not planning to be using it more than once or twice a year. If your neighbor is willing to let you use it (and maybe teach you a few things from his years of experience), so much the better- but definitely get some welding experience FIRST, so you don't just pick up his bad habits! If he's a little recalcitrant, ask your dad to flex him a six-pack of his favorite dew to smooth the way.

Anyone who thinks a car would be LESS expensive than a welder, a grinder, and some plans is blinding themselves to the TRUTH that cars are THE ULTIMATE money pit! Sure, you might be able to get into a car for a grand or so, but you KNOW the thing is going to need work. So, after a few more hundred (or thousand!) dollars in body work, engine work, brakes, whatever, now there's registration, plates, insurance (and you sound young, I imagine your insurance is going to be ASTRONOMICAL), add in gasoline, oil, coolant, all the usual things that go into a regular maintenance schedule, and that thousand-dollar car just cost you closer to five grand! How did THAT happen?!

Ditto Brad's estimate - building your own is PRICELESS. Not only the skills, but the PRIDE, the JOY, and the FUN! Nothing tops pulling up to a stop and having people gawk, and getting to say, "No, I didn't buy this, I BUILT IT MYSELF," and seeing the incredulous looks on their faces. Add in the fitness of riding, the knowledge of its construction, welding, painting, basic mechanics, etc., and you get a storehouse of treasures you'd spend a fortune (or a lifetime) to amass otherwise.

[theTman]

i figured out how to make the vigilante multi-speed easily! I can put in an internal hub transmission on the rear wheel. google it if you are curious. the chain attaches to a gear on the outer casing, and then gears inside adjust the ratio going to the actual axle on the rear wheel. it shouldn't be too hard. i will probably build a singlespeed vigilante first, and then when i feel like shelling out 150$ for a rear internal hub then i will make any modifications needed and get one. If i have welding the first term of school, then i will probably build it in welding class if possible. one guy built a 3-4 inch roll bar for his truck in that class. it framed the back window and had 2 diagonal supports reaching to the back of the 8 foot bed of his truck. it will also earn major coolness points with people at school. and a question for atomiczombie: are there any pieces of welded metal on the vigilante that would be hard to find in aluminum. because from looking around, aluminum isn't very much more than steel square tubing, and it is lighter as well. also my school has the appropriate equipment for welding aluminum. that should make it nice and light. And could i please get the weight of the vigilante pictured on this site?!?!?!?!? A comparison would help my decision on whether aluminum construction would really be needed. oh, and i think i found a couple of good tools for this.

http://www.northerntool.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/product_6970_200326926_200326926

http://www.northerntool.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/product_6970_200355916_200355916

tell me what you think.

Oh, and the reason my dad said he didn't want me to get these tools due to cost, and wants me to get a car is that he sees money towards these tools as money wasted that could have been put towards a car. i am almost 18 and i dont own a car, so i think he wants me to get moving on that. My sister didn't have a car until she was 21, and was 3 years into college 120 miles from home. i think he didn't like that, and wants to prevent that.

[TheKid]

Check out harborfreight.com for a welder. The Northern Tool grinder is probably better than the harbor freight grinders. I say that because I went through two of them already. However, they have reconditioned welders that are a bit cheaper and more powerful than the one you posted. I have a reconditioned HF welder, and there's no problem with it whatsoever.
As for internal gear hubs, they won't work on the Vigilante unless you use a bicycle wheel. Auto and motorcycle wheels are too wide. Plus, you wouldn't be able to weldt the Vigilante spokes to the hub without frying it. You could always make the hub with a standard rear hub with freewheel threads and modify it for the wider wheel, the screw on a 6 or 7 speed freewheel. The one from your Magna will do just fine.

[theTman]

i actually would prefer to keep my magna intact, as it would still probably be my longer distance bike, and the vigilante cant haul my trailer to carry my rubber raft, and associated gear. but yeah, i know that the internal hub would have to be mounted oddly. i would probably replace the right side of the rear axle with it, use the spoke holes to wire another piece of tubing to the outer portion, and then thread an axle extension onto the other side of the unit, and through the tubing to the left hub. the only question is will it support the weight with that setup. i cant weld the internal hub to the wheel because it is aluminum, and even with an aluminum frame i can't weld a steel half spare rim to aluminum spokes so that the unit could be welded to the 6 spokes. when i have it built, maybe i could build a second wheel with a couple smaller wheels next to each other with the right wheel having the unit installed, and a connector between the 2 wheel axles. then depending on my needs i could swap out rear wheels, and find a way to disconnect the shifter cable easily. i am resourceful, and with effor you can make most things work.

[TheKid]

Or you could use a 3 speed internal hub used as a mid drive on trikes. Use it the same way, mount it as a mid drive. Your low gear would be 1/4 to 1/3 lower, and you'd have a higher gear if you could use it. At 17 years old, you should be able to handle that easily.

[theTman]

this may sound stupid, but what is a mid-drive? also, concerning harbor freight, I do not think that any exist in minnesota, but northern tool and equipment is 20 miles away.

[TheKid]

A lot of us buy from HF and Northern Tool online. A mid drive is a set of cogs or chainrings between the cranks and the rear wheel. They're used for a variety of reasons, such as increasing the gear range, or to get the chain to the rear wheel when it's drastically offset from the cranks.

[theTman]

this may be a good option for a rear derailluer
http://www.bikeparts.com/search_results.asp?id=BPC114331

it is bit costly, but not as much as an internal hub. it also will match the bike pretty well. since the derailluer connects to the rear hub axle, i should be able to mount it to the vigilante as is, and all i will have to do is make room on the rear axle for a 9 gear set. i think a nine speed would be good enough, but i could still try to find a way to mount a front derailluer. and atomiczombie, could you weigh your vigilante and post up the weight in lbs?

[TheKid]

81 bucks for a derailler? All you need is a derailler from a donor bike, and if you can't find a donor, any cheap derailler will do. You won't have to worry about ground clearance, because the rear wheel is large enough to give you plenty. Forget the 9 speed, you'll need three rings in the front, and a freehub. With one chainring, a six speed freewheel is probably your best bet. You can buy freewheel hubs for $6 and change, and less than 20 bucks for a freewheel. Here are some links:

http://www.bikepartsusa.com/bikeparts/item/01-114442/hub-rear_hubs/Pyramid--rear-hub.-Steel%2C-small-flanged%2C-36-hole%2C-80-gauge%2C-56-speed.-Color%3A-black&category=hub-rear_hubs

This hub and derailler will handle a 7 speed freewheel

http://www.bikepartsusa.com/bikeparts/item/01-102372/derailleur-rear_derailleur/Shimano--Rear-Derailleur-RD-TY18-TOURNEY-GS-6sp-WBRACKET&category=derailleur-rear_derailleur


http://www.niagaracycle.com/product_info.php?products_id=6270

[gbbwolf]

Will save my donut money for that 7 speed freewheel.
Just what I need.
Will pair nicely with my 7 speed mega-range derailler.

Will be awhile, but my 6 speed from the popo is working good so far,
so no hurry.

Nelson

[theTman]

thanks for the tip on the cheaper parts. i thought that quality components would have to cost alot more. the reason i picked the derailler i linked to was the fact that it mounts to the rear axle, so i wouldn't need to make a mount for it. i'm sure i could figure everything out. so can the rear axle on the vigilante use a freewheel with multiple cogs? i think insight from atomic zombie is needed.

[TheKid]

Actually, the one you posted is made for a specific type of frame, and a specific wheel. Most department store deraillers mount to the axle and to an eyelet on the dropout.

[Sparky]

yes, you could put a multi speed cassette on there. is it designed for it? no, i dont think so. but that just means you have to figure out how to make it work. :D

i dont know how his plans have it, but perhaps you could use a BB cup like i did on my streetfighter. or you might could use part of an axle from a mtn bike wheel.

and in all truth, you dont even have to go with that 8 spoke design with the back wheel. you could put a regular mtn bike wheel on it. perhaps one with a 3 inch wide cruiser tire. or get one of those fat 20" schwinn stingray back wheels and swap hubs with a mtn bike. come to think of it, that might not be a bad idea. would be smaller, but with all the gears, that might be okay.

[TheKid]

Just cut a steel rear hub in half and weld each end into the tube used for the hub. That gives you the freewheel threads. You'll also have to make the axle longer. I would suggest converting the hub with a 14mm axle. There are conversion kits available with the cups, axle and bearings. You'll still have to make the axle longer.
Looking at the pics, I would say my original suggestion to sticking with a 6 speed is the best option, unless you could find a five speed. I think it would be difficult to add a front derailler without compromising the design of the frame. Five or six speeds work better than a 7 speed with that chainline. Five and six speed freewheels have the same high and low gears, as a rule. That's 28-14.