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MrIdaho
11-28-2015, 06:57 PM
Thursday my grandson and daughter sat on my almost done delta recumbent and got me to thinking about a tandem delta type trike sorta of a mix of the kyoto cruiser and delta runner where the seats are in line front and back instead of side by side.
The co pilot sits just behind the rear axle line. The rear wheels are mounted in standard drop outs (like the merdian trikes.
The left rear wheel is driven via a jackshaft.
One issue I realized is the co pilot needs to have the chain wheels mounted so they are on the left side.
Seems I saw some where that this is not doable due to the way the chain wheel sprockets are cut??
Any thoughts.

darnthedog
11-28-2015, 07:27 PM
Why not just get the Loderunner 2 plans and see how Brad does it. Just a thought. The Viking is also a tandem with dual riders. Either one of those plans would give you answers. Just a thought.

edspedalcars
11-28-2015, 08:20 PM
Thursday my grandson and daughter sat on my almost done delta recumbent and got me to thinking about a tandem delta type trike sorta of a mix of the kyoto cruiser and delta runner where the seats are in line front and back instead of side by side.
The co pilot sits just behind the rear axle line. The rear wheels are mounted in standard drop outs (like the merdian trikes.
The left rear wheel is driven via a jackshaft.
One issue I realized is the co pilot needs to have the chain wheels mounted so they are on the left side.
Seems I saw some where that this is not doable due to the way the chain wheel sprockets are cut??
Any thoughts.

FWIW

Check out what was going to be, my 'dual drive' mockup, on the T bucket pedal car, in the gallery pics.
(Don't look at the fabrication method, it was before AtomicZombie, and the lessons learned since then)

http://s24.postimg.org/no09szhhd/003.jpg (http://postimg.org/image/no09szhhd/) http://s24.postimg.org/ufqovu6gx/001.jpg (http://postimg.org/image/ufqovu6gx/)

Though not completed, it did work with two people, working their own pedals.
My son and I 'drove/rode' it, down the street and back.

Maybe, there is something in it, that falls into what you are considering.



One issue I realized is the co pilot needs to have the chain wheels mounted so they are on the left side.
Seems I saw some where that this is not doable due to the way the chain wheel sprockets are cut??
Any thoughts.

I think it is very doable. It believe it just depends on the mounting method, and placement of the BB.

Or do like DTD say's and use the Viking, Loadrunner2 plans.
Here's an idea .. http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys/smiley-think004.gif, just turn the seats backwards, and you will have your delt tandem...:evilgrin:

Anyway, that's my 2 cents

MrIdaho
11-29-2015, 09:09 AM
I have the plans for the Viking and Lodgrunner but I wanted something simpler and don't need to fabricate hubs etc for the wheels. Although I really enjoy building wheels, for this project I am looking at KISS.
Here is where I am at for basic layout (both chain wheels on right side of boom)but thinking maybe by shifting the main boom over (referenced off the cross beam that holds the jack shaft)1 inch to the right-hand and shifting the co pilots BB over 1 inch to the left I should be able to place two 16T single speed freewheel sprockets onto the jack shaft and a #41 sprocket that has been ground down thinner to allow a multi speed bike chain to fit to drive the left rear wheel. Only one rear derailer. The main frame made from 1 1/2" or 2" box while the rear box frame is made from 1" box.
Using this configuration I can keep the costs lower hopefully and use rim brakes on all three wheels. Braking to utilize the freewheel brake arm that I am still looking for that was posted last year? I recall it was on a kids trike??http://i992.photobucket.com/albums/af44/MrDEB/delta%20tandem_zpsf5e3awif.png (http://s992.photobucket.com/user/MrDEB/media/delta%20tandem_zpsf5e3awif.png.html)

edspedalcars
11-29-2015, 10:06 AM
Braking to utilize the freewheel brake arm that I am still looking for that was posted last year? I recall it was on a kids trike??

Are you by any chance referring to this setup, that savarin made?

http://i154.photobucket.com/albums/s258/savarin48/hub1.jpg

darnthedog
11-29-2015, 11:31 AM
I have the plans for the Viking and Lodgrunner but I wanted something simpler and don't need to fabricate hubs etc for the wheels. Although I really enjoy building wheels, for this project I am looking at KISS.
Here is where I am at for basic layout (both chain wheels on right side of boom)but thinking maybe by shifting the main boom over (referenced off the cross beam that holds the jack shaft)1 inch to the right-hand and shifting the co pilots BB over 1 inch to the left I should be able to place two 16T single speed freewheel sprockets onto the jack shaft and a #41 sprocket that has been ground down thinner to allow a multi speed bike chain to fit to drive the left rear wheel. Only one rear derailer. The main frame made from 1 1/2" or 2" box while the rear box frame is made from 1" box.
Using this configuration I can keep the costs lower hopefully and use rim brakes on all three wheels. Braking to utilize the freewheel brake arm that I am still looking for that was posted last year? I recall it was on a kids trike??http://i992.photobucket.com/albums/af44/MrDEB/delta%20tandem_zpsf5e3awif.png (http://s992.photobucket.com/user/MrDEB/media/delta%20tandem_zpsf5e3awif.png.html)

To keep it simple why not have 2 jack shafts- one for each peddler each driving their own wheel. Just a thought.

MrIdaho
11-29-2015, 03:00 PM
YES after thinking about the mess I was thinking about considering the de railers etc.
BUT now to configure w/ two jack-shafts and riders front and back instead of side by side which just may be easier but may need to clunk my head with a hammer to get it going right lol

MrIdaho
11-29-2015, 11:22 PM
realizing that a rear de railer may have major issues mounting it backwards so this is what my train of thought is headed. derailers and wheel rotation lays into this design
http://i992.photobucket.com/albums/af44/MrDEB/delta%20tandem2_zpsc5319nlp.png (http://s992.photobucket.com/user/MrDEB/media/delta%20tandem2_zpsc5319nlp.png.html)

darnthedog
11-29-2015, 11:55 PM
I think you missed my statement- Each peddler pedals their own wheel- Not 2 on 1 wheel. You are still making it far too complex. How old are the kids you are making this for? Will they know how to shift? Do you really need derailleurs? You did say grand kids.

MrIdaho
11-30-2015, 09:43 AM
Grand kids are 6 & 10
The issue is the co pilot is behind the jack-shaft and axles thus everything is reversed. Been pondering and now thinking of a trike for each kid but build with rear drop outs as my drawing. Basically a Delta trike but with 20" wheels all around. Use my drawing but only one rider. The pedals to be adjustable.
This plan would save a-lot of gray hairs as well.
Brakes could be disc or rim but rim would be cheaper. Just need to research the brake activation thread using a freewheel .

darnthedog
11-30-2015, 10:11 AM
http://s25.postimg.org/69am3cnor/delta_tandem2_zpsc5319nlp.jpg (http://postimg.org/image/69am3cnor/)

This is what I mean by KISS one rider on wheel. It is rough cut on your image modified. The 10 year old will always dominate the drive as they will be stronger and want to go faster. They each have their own gear shifting to allow them to pedal as hard or slow as they desire. The brakes need to be controlled by pilot only. And all derailleurs will remain as a normal bike. The jack shafts need to be 1:1 fix gears with no freewheeling as it is not needed. The Wheels will be the freewheeling. And Each peddler will drive their own wheel, the dominate peddler will drive the bike forward while the extra will only be adding to the overall force when they can keep up.

MrIdaho
11-30-2015, 12:07 PM
That configuration came to mind but really not settled in to what to build.
one note on that configuration, the co-pilot needs a freewheel some where because the co pilots pedals will always be turning. Needs a freewheel to prevent.
easiest is to mount a single speed freewheel on the final jack shaft.Co pilot only.
The pilots connection to main jack shaft may need a freewheel as well.
Been pondering maybe just build two Delta Wolfs but use 20 or 24 inch wheels instead of the 26. Go with the rear frame configuration as drawn which will make it easier to mount rim brakes and no need to make weld on hubs. The COG on the Delta Wolf as per plans shows the ground clearance at 8 inches and COG at 4 inches below axle center line.
Use a 24 inch wheel, shorten the back rest to 10 inches then the COG remains at 4 inches below the axle center line
shorten back rest to 8.5 for 20 inch wheels for same results. 8 inch ground clearance and 4 inches below axle ctr. line
This would solve several build issues as well as possible sibling issues.
Just contemplating all the options.

Twinkle
11-30-2015, 01:05 PM
At 10 and 6 if they are not lardikids then a pair of tadpoles would be quick builds without the hassle of jack and his shafts and special hubs , UK kids would be OK with 10mm hubs single sided as per Brads previous statements

regards emma

MrIdaho
11-30-2015, 01:54 PM
I never even considered a Tadpole. Thanks that may save some time and material as I can get by without using 20mm (3/4") hubs on the front.
I think I saw some wheels over at Bargain basement with 3/8" axles.

MrIdaho
11-30-2015, 01:58 PM
yes 20" wheel, 48H w/ 3/8" axle for $3 each
http://bbbp.net/
part # WF99

MrIdaho
11-30-2015, 02:31 PM
I must live right.Just went to Ebay and purchased new BMX wheels w/ 14mm axles. All four for $100 free shipping
So now instead of a Delta we are committed to build two Tadpole trikes,
Now comes the issue of brakes for the wheels.

Twinkle
11-30-2015, 05:49 PM
run 20" wheels on the rear will give the kids a sensible gearing ( lower than normal ) without too much strain 5/6 size or 3/4 will be better for the youngsters or the physical size will be too big for them

MrIdaho
11-30-2015, 10:47 PM
That is the plan but building a Warrior type rear frame that will take a 2o" to 26" wheel.
Kids grow fast.
Now just need to locate king pin parts. Was thinking of the 1 25" conduit with 1/2" id flanged bearings but mounting the steering arms?

MrIdaho
12-14-2015, 06:17 PM
Finally got my Delta Runner assembled for a test ride.
Oups the brakes need adjusting really bad but rode around the block really slow. The steering is rather fast, very sensitive. Need to slow it down a bit. The project rolls very well but feel I am ready to fall off but think its due to the loose seat attachment bolts.
Adjusted the brakes and test drove again. forgot to tighten the seat. Brakes work ok. I should have purchased better rear disc brake. It was supposed to be Avid BB5 but never saw the Avid name on it. You get what you pay for on Ebay. Can't complain 2 calipers and 2 rotors for $25 NEW
Tomorrow going to slow down the steering a bit and tighten the seat. Just hope it is not raining.
Really impressed with the agility and turn radius but still want to slow the steering down a bit. not real comfortable.

MrIdaho
12-16-2015, 01:57 PM
Well the brakes still are not very good and the steering is really fast. Was/ am contemplating drilling a second hole on the steering control arm but wonder if maybe I have something else going on.
I rechecked the head tube and it says 60 degrees which is close to the plans.
The steering is way out of wack to almost being uncontrollable. A slight turn of the handle bars and bam!! your turning. The turn radius is almost zero. Turn the handle bars say a 1/2" inch and you can almost make a u turn. Not sure if the 20 inch wheel has any bearing on this??
Going to think on this as well as maybe buy a better disc brake caliper.
Tried uploading pics to photobucket but keep getting errors.

MrIdaho
12-16-2015, 03:20 PM
well the pics got uploaded to Photobucket but why the error message?
here is what this project looks like.
Need to figure out why the steering is so fast and almost uncontrollable.
the head tube is at 60 degrees with a 20 inch wheel instead of the 26 in the pans.
Ordered some REAL Clark's CMD-11 calipers. Hopefully they will get this project to stop. NOTE I might have made an error in judgement with one brake handle controlling a disc brake AND a rim brake.
http://i992.photobucket.com/albums/af44/MrDEB/delta%20wolf%20056_zpscbet9mmy.jpg (http://s992.photobucket.com/user/MrDEB/media/delta%20wolf%20056_zpscbet9mmy.jpg.html) http://i992.photobucket.com/albums/af44/MrDEB/delta%20wolf%20055_zpslvqxq18i.jpg (http://s992.photobucket.com/user/MrDEB/media/delta%20wolf%20055_zpslvqxq18i.jpg.html)

sandman
12-16-2015, 04:38 PM
Is the snap turn the same both left and right turns Mr I ?
regards
John

bambuko
12-16-2015, 04:49 PM
...Need to figure out why the steering is so fast and almost uncontrollable...
because you have a whopping 4" to 6" of trail?

Twinkle
12-16-2015, 05:11 PM
steering arm lengths look a little short to me try lengthening them both this happens on radio control models with short arms

regards emma

MrIdaho
12-16-2015, 07:25 PM
I was wondering about the trail but the plans show 58 degrees on the head tube BUT don't think that the trail changes with a 20 to 26 inch wheel?
Am probably wrong in my thoughts. Was laying down watching blue bloods and contemplating how to change the head tube angle to lessen the amount of trail. Maybe cut at the main boom just in the back and sides then bend the upright forward, insert a wedge and weld. Might be better than completely removing and cutting new joint angle as the upright has a flap of metal going over the end of the main boom. Hopefully maintain that integrity.
The steering arms are both the same length so that I maintain a 1 to 1 steering ratio.

bambuko
12-16-2015, 07:45 PM
It's the straight forks, not the head angle...
Change forks before you start cutting anything else!

MrIdaho
12-16-2015, 07:52 PM
after doing some research I see where I made my mistake.
I need less trail to decrease wheel flop. I found a calculator and sing my present set up I see a 20" wheel has 86mm of trail where as a 26 inch wheel has 128mm of trail.
I have another fork That I will try but its not a suspension fork.
If all goes well I can live with out the front suspension. The forks I have on the beast had a 26 inch wheel and I lowered the brake pivots to accommodate the 20 inch wheel.
Learn by doing is better than any class room or degree.

MrIdaho
12-17-2015, 12:24 AM
An update on the rear disc brake. I ordered two Clark CM-11 calipers to replace the "Avid" imaginations ones I purchased. I knew they were not original Avid BB-5 brakes at 2 rotors and calipers for $25 but I figured I had to give it a shot.
I left unfavorable feedback on Ebay and the company I made the purchase from has offered me a full refund. All I need to do is submit a favorable feed back. NO PROBLEM as long as I get a refund.
Come Friday I plan to try a different set of forks to change the amount of trail.
Interesting tidbit, in North Dakota they have a min and max on amount of trail a bike can have. Pretty sure it pertains to motorcycles.

MrIdaho
12-17-2015, 12:25 AM
forgot to post this link about bicycle geometry

http://calfeedesign.com/tech-papers/geometry-of-bike-handling/

MrIdaho
12-18-2015, 05:02 PM
http://i992.photobucket.com/albums/af44/MrDEB/new%20trike%20004_zpsuxfdqoeh.jpg (http://s992.photobucket.com/user/MrDEB/media/new%20trike%20004_zpsuxfdqoeh.jpg.html)I cured the trike wheel flop by increasing the trail. If you look you will see where the original front drop out were and where they are now.
Test rode and it rides really nice. Even got brave and got up to a decent speed and tried to tip the trike over by turning the handle bars one way then the other, but it wouldn't have any of that.
Now just waiting for my new disc brake caliper for the rear and then I will connect up the front brake.

bambuko
12-18-2015, 05:48 PM
...I cured the trike wheel flop by increasing the trail...
I am happy that you cured your problem, but... you have increased the rake (fork offset) and decreased the trail :innocent: :cry2:
(which is what was needed :D btw)


...Learn by doing is better than any class room or degree...
only if you actually understand what is hapenning
:punk:

darnthedog
12-18-2015, 06:31 PM
Mr Idaho:
While you may be fond of calculators I direct to our own tutorials to see how rake and trail are measured and not calculated. See:http://atomiczombie.com/Tutorial%20-%20Rake%20And%20Trail%20-%20Page%201.aspx

Bambuko is correct in that you shorten your trail by a couple inches by adding that metal. Glad you are having fun.

MrIdaho
12-18-2015, 10:50 PM
yes I see where I decreased trail. I mis labeled what I needed.
I looked at several trikes in the plans and noticed what they had vers what I had.
ALL is well now.