Another FWD Delta trike.

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I though everyone did that ....... till I met you and John that is :whistle:
No, just you. ;) The rest of us "wing-it" and hope to God we can buy whatever we need, when we need to. NB, this does not work for re-welding snapped off bits on a Wonky-Donkey. :(
Is that counting the banana bags ?
Nope they were extra "just-in-case" storage and for carrying the 3 bottles of wine the Tonic and the Litre of Vodka back to camp each night. ;)
 
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As requested I dragged the Python out of it's parking spot (stood against the workshop wall) and put the seat on it for a better idea of "interferences".

This shot shows a 46L box tucked into the space between the rear wheels (32.5" track).


Using that as a platform (there is currently no rear racking) I put a 30L pannier, stuffed with the wife's finest scatter-cushions. Side and rear views.




And here is that 46L crate (stood on a paint pot) in the same location for comparison.



I think an enterprising person could make a frame for crate/pannier stashing and get all they needed for a trip into the space if they really tried hard.
Alternatively.......
Change the rear section of the trike for a lowered X-Beam and increase the space and place the load lower to improve the CoG?

 
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Dan

I did a similar thing with the Mk2 Python rear end.



A sort of reverse bike pannier rack , there were a couple of reasons for it ending up this shape ?

My panniers opened like yours it was much safer to have them pointing inwards so any hanging straps/buckles did not get in the rear wheels.
It stopped the rear wheels throwing water into the tops of the panniers.
A lot easier to open the panniers as the tops went over the wheels instead of if they were back to back where they would obstruct each other.
My home panniers at that time where cheap Ebay ones and quite hard to mount dismount hence the solution.

It looks to me like if you panniers were just rewards about 4" they would drop behind your rear axle and so could be lower by about 5" ?
For camping that would work and seems less work than dropping the whole of that axle which works fine ? so it looks like mine ?

Paul
 
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Dan

I did a similar thing with the Mk2 Python rear end.



A sort of reverse bike pannier rack , there were a couple of reasons for it ending up this shape ?

My panniers opened like yours it was much safer to have them pointing inwards so any hanging straps/buckles did not get in the rear wheels.
It stopped the rear wheels throwing water into the tops of the panniers.
A lot easier to open the panniers as the tops went over the wheels instead of if they were back to back where they would obstruct each other.
My home panniers at that time where cheap Ebay ones and quite hard to mount dismount hence the solution.

It looks to me like if you panniers were just rewards about 4" they would drop behind your rear axle and so could be lower by about 5" ?
For camping that would work and seems less work than dropping the whole of that axle which works fine ? so it looks like mine ?

Paul
I see what you are driving at, but.... as the rear bit is suspended it has no vertical members to bolt a rack/frame to and it cannot be attached to the seat back spar because of the suspension movement.
Doing what you did on your Mk2 does provide a pair of points that you could mount to. I will think about the options available for fixing a rigid frame for panniers to what is there. :)
 
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I see what you are driving at, but.... as the rear bit is suspended it has no vertical members to bolt a rack/frame to and it cannot be attached to the seat back spar because of the suspension movement.
No this was once suspended just like yours ? see the hole in the main frame between the axle and the forward brace mountings ? Non of my pannier mountings were on the suspended part.

Doing what you did on your Mk2 does provide a pair of points that you could mount to. I will think about the options available for fixing a rigid frame for panniers to what is there. :)
The front pannier mounts just happened to be shorter than yours would be because of the vertical axle mounts , on yours you don't even need to drop the axle as the panniers can sit behind the axle.

Something like this should cover it ?



Blue parts could be 1/2" or maybe 10mm tubing [ you have a bender ] room to mount 2 panniers and the tent on top , like a normal bike rack however yours has a suspension unit inside it.
Could even be Q/R'ed on [ I know you like them :LOL: ] only 4 attachments.
In fact looking at it if you omitted the lower rear ' bumper style ' piece the lower mounting points of the 2 rear most stays could be taken directly back to the axle inside the pannier gap at the width of the tent support , total width - 2 x pannier size front to back ?

Paul
 
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After a long chat with Paul this morning I had a think on the adjustable width issue and the work involved etc. etc.

As ever, Paul's pragmatism and common-sense was countering my headlong rush to build stuff (because we can ;) )

I can (obviously) make a 24” track (28” total width) rear X-beam to fit the existing Python frame that allows the trike to be wheeled down the side of the house.

I can also make a common QR/Bolt-on rack/carrier to fit the current rear end AND any future rear end to allow me to take it shopping and for weekend (or longer) trips.
Something else that occurred to me was that with the QR attached Sturmey wheels & hubs the rear wheels are very easy to swap over from 20" to 24".

Now, my rushing ahead has been all about making use of those 24" wheels with the fat tyres possibly on a whole new frame, and Paul was questioning the need for yet another trike when I have storage issues already.

The upshot is that I could have a common frame and swap the back wheels over between 20/24".......But what about the front end?

Then I remembered that my existing PPP provides a common carrier to which a “front-end” frame gets bolted.

So all (yes of course “all” is a small word for a lot of work) I have to do is make a 24” front section to bolt onto my PPP (4-Bolts correctly spaced in the right places).

Talking of a 24" front frame; I rummaged around in the workshop roof-space and found a suspension bike rear frame for a 24" wheel.


So here is the PPP area of my Python in the picture below (parked vertically against the wall of my tiny workshop.
My silly mistake was to mount the handlebars to the front removable section that is part of the front forks/frame (instead of the rear permanent PPP section).
That is fairly easy to fix I think.



So I need to make another bolt-on framework that attaches to the PPP frame and then weld my 24” front wheel’s frame to that.
At least that’s how it looks to me right now.

Taking the Python apart to prove it can all be done may reveal something else entirely and WILL take the Python out of commission for a while.

But like the old BT advert used to say... "It's good to talk" because it makes you think about "other options".

Later folks! :D
 
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Dan

That looks a good starting point.

However the real reason for you stalling to build the next trike has not been divulged ?

You are waiting for the northern guinea pig to prove/disprove that with a 24" track rear end and a 18" high seat you need to tilt to get around corners safely ?

Crash test dummy suit in wash , however soon be wearable again !

Paul
 
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Dan

That looks a good starting point.

However the real reason for you stalling to build the next trike has not been divulged ?

You are waiting for the northern guinea pig to prove/disprove that with a 24" track rear end and a 18" high seat you need to tilt to get around corners safely ?

Crash test dummy suit in wash , however soon be wearable again !

Paul
I wanted to spare your blushes.....honest! :ROFLMAO:
I took another look at the existing Python and I think there is a key dimension I can use to make my life easier when making a 24" front frame.
The BB axle is exactly 685mm from the centre of the fixed seat mount, so staying in this "orbit" should result in success.
It may mean the BB axle is a little higher though. But 20 - 24 inches is only 2" radius difference. But I can raise the seat by almost 2" too on elastomers can't I Paul? ;)
 
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Some steel was mangled and electrons press ganged into forming a warming breeze for said steel and some filler rod.


This is the start of a new front frame/triangle for the Python.
A "Shortness of Legs" issue will probably mandate that the Bottom Bracket ends up on the riders side of the axle and a little higher than I would normally like, but we are not there yet so I don't know for sure.
 
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It may mean the BB axle is a little higher though. But 20 - 24 inches is only 2" radius difference.
Err no ? because it is the whole wheel i.e the potential for 2" between pivot and axle and 2" between axle and BB when I was at school that was 4" ?

But I can raise the seat by almost 2" too on elastomers can't I Paul? ;)
You can raise the seat just as high as you want matey , however I would stop if the nose bleeds prove to be persistent :D

Paul
 
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A "Shortness of Legs" issue will probably mandate that the Bottom Bracket ends up on the riders side of the axle and a little higher than I would normally like, but we are not there yet so I don't know for sure.
Wow into uncharted territory there mate , good luck.

Paul
 
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Well today's efforts have been frustrating for the most part. :(

The first part went OK when I revised the main members of the new front forks for the 24" wheel. (y)


But it all went downhill from there. :(

Here is a picture of a destroyed dismantled fully working Python.

Wheel out, bars out, 4 bolts undone and front frame removed from the pivot that sits in the middle.



The rest of the entire day was spent struggling to manufacture a look-alike front frame assembly to bolt onto the pivots frame.
I can confirm that...IF you try to build "stuff" on top of existing "stuff", you get....well..."STUFFED". :(

You are not building on a bench you are building on an existing frame that does not want to co-operate as you try to line up 4 pairs of holes across 2 frames. :eek:
You discover that it is all to easy for things to go to 💩.

But. If you refer to your Anglo-Saxon dictionary of useful words and phrases like "Oh no you don't you $%^*" and "Do that again and I'm angle grinding you to bits" you manage to get at least a tiny bit done of what you had planned.

Here we see the resultant front frame attachment section to which the rest of the front frame will be welded. The bolts and bolt holes all line up and can be fastened to the pivot.
The frame is yet to be trimmed to size and have the sides capped. The washers are there as packing as the original 20" wheeled front frame is made of 50mm x 25mm oblong tube and the new 24" wheeled frame will be made of 25mm x 12mm oblong tube.



So I have a sub-frame that bolts to the pivot, and the next step will be to unbolt it again from the pivot and weld the main arms of the front forks to this sub-frame on the bench.

YES! I know there are many elements of the original Python, its pivot and the new stuff that would have benefited from different choices as to what bolts to what, through bolts Vs. Captive nuts etc. etc.

We live and learn.....Or NOT. ;)
 
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The radius difference is 2". The diameter difference is 4".
Confusing , he is cheating and trying to fit the pedals between the pivot and the axle - radius = 2"
instead of pedals in front of the axle - where radius = 2 x 2"

it will end in tears , mark my words...

Paul
 
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Well today's efforts have been frustrating for the most part. :(

YES! I know there are many elements of the original Python, its pivot and the new stuff that would have benefited from different choices as to what bolts to what, through bolts Vs. Captive nuts etc. etc.

We live and learn.....Or NOT. ;)
It is called :-

This is an illustration of what’s known as path dependence and lock-in.

Past decisions have lingering, unintended effects that we accept without really questioning their genesis. These can make us closed to what might be possible because we confuse what is possible with “what is possible within the way we do things at the moment.”


My Tilter#4 is exactly the same and based on decisions made when building the first Python back in 2013 , 8 years ago !

We all do it.

One of the reason I will give the first Python away , to free me from it's influence and allow newer/better ways of building [ I hope :whistle: ]

Paul
 
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It is called :-

This is an illustration of what’s known as path dependence and lock-in.

Past decisions have lingering, unintended effects that we accept without really questioning their genesis. These can make us closed to what might be possible because we confuse what is possible with “what is possible within the way we do things at the moment.”


My Tilter#4 is exactly the same and based on decisions made when building the first Python back in 2013 , 8 years ago !

We all do it.

One of the reason I will give the first Python away , to free me from it's influence and allow newer/better ways of building [ I hope :whistle: ]

Paul
Indeed. It may be a good enough reason to the scrap the entire thing and find a different use for the 24" wheels. :)
 
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Interesting stuff Danny. Anyone can build to a plan, sort of like painting by numbers, and everything is mapped out for you and you just have to copy. It takes real genius and dedication within no time limits to create something that is perfect, rather than a copy of something that just worked. That has been going on since time immemorial and is the reason for invention and progress.

There are not many of us real geniuses around.

Perseverance is your friend. It will get you through.
 
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Interesting stuff Danny. Anyone can build to a plan, sort of like painting by numbers, and everything is mapped out for you and you just have to copy. It takes real genius and dedication within no time limits to create something that is perfect, rather than a copy of something that just worked. That has been going on since time immemorial and is the reason for invention and progress.

There are not many of us real geniuses around.

Perseverance is your friend. It will get you through.
Thank you for the words of encouragement, it is much appreciated. :)
I have had some more thoughts on what I might do, but for the moment it is a "parked" project until some design work gets done to make things clearer.
To be totally honest I DO like the simplicity of the FWD Python format with its single chain like a standard bicycle and it's smaller turning circle.
My current python has a seat about 16" from the ground on 20" wheels and my desire to use another N380 IGH in a 24" wheel is presenting a few challenges for a person with a 29" inside leg measurement. :ROFLMAO:
With 2 decent trikes already that don't get ridden nearly enough as it is; it is hard to justify a third one.
 
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Dan

What garage time and no pictures tut tut tut ....

Paul
 
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OK, OK...you nag worse than my Missus ;)

Today was a mixed bag of results, some good, some not so good.

Firstly I had a go at making a seam remover for some 38mm Square tube I want to slip inserts into.
The idea is that a "carrier slug" of the required insert tube size is prepared so that it will hold a piece of HSS tool-steel in position exactly where the weld seam is located.
A cap on this insert has a captive nut welded onto it and a length of "all-thread/studding" is used to pull the carrier through the outer tube and scrape off the protruding weld-seam.

Here is the insert carrier with the slot that the tool-steel rests up against.


This next picture just shows the slug inserted into the outer tube. It is in the vise only because I ran out of hands to hold things to take the picture.



Did it work? I hear you asking.

Well, Yes & No. :(
Yes it worked and removed several inches of the weld seam.
But then... it got stuck partway through the tube and the forces proved too much for the M10 studding and it snapped just where the welded on nut was applying the turning force against the friction in the set-up.
The outer tube was almost HOT to the touch, so there was considerable friction forces in there. and TBH I am not surprised M10 snapped (it is a little light for the job).

So, we have parked that while we go get some heavier gauge thread & nuts and we will have another go later.

Next up was a "trial fit" onto the Python Trike of a rack that I had made for an earlier trike (WD II). It was made of 12mm Square tube (mostly) and was exceptionally strong.

I will fit the rack to the seat support spar using the existing Seat-mounting fixing point at the top and I will create a new fixing point lower down on the spar for the bottom end of the rack.
Unfortunately I have run out of 10mm round tube so I will need to get some. As little as 1 Metre should do it.

That is all. :)

 
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