Ed's 'StreetRunner' Quad Build

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Sep 12, 2012
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3,051
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Apple Valley, California, USA
The moon, stars, planets, mood, weather, and enthusiasm all lined up today.

So I tackled some more wiring. Went for the turn signals today. All went well, with each light working as it's supposed to. The problem is I can't get it to stop working.

I've stared at it long enough. I have to call in the cavalry.
A picture is worth...well you know how that goes.

The red wire to the brake light switch is [NOT] hooked up.
I did try a touch test to see if it made a difference and I got nothing.

I opened the switch but didn't notice anything wrong. Though there may be a connection in there that isn't noticeable when closed ???

 
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Sep 12, 2012
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Apple Valley, California, USA
A problem with no answer ?- Grrrrr:mad:

This project has come to a screeching halt.


Still no luck in solving this project halting, annoying problem.
I've had people from far and wide, offering advice, and still no answer.

Even had help from Speedway motors and they couldn't help. In fact, they suggested I don't even buy their, same switch.
I have blown about 5 fuses, and melted the wires (helped by a friend) trying to reason why?
I bought a second switch from a different supplier and that switch does the same thing.

I thought maybe it had something to do with the wiring in the car. NOT.
I tried the switch with external batteries hooked up and the same problem persists.

I seemed to be left with two options.

Replace this switch with a different kind, and ruin the aesthetics of that part of the project. (Not a desired choice)
Modify the switch so that it will not make electrical contact while in the off position. And using a secondary method for 4-way warnings lights.
 
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Apr 15, 2013
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2,052
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Washington state
suggest using an ohm meter with switch unconnected from anything.
draw a schematic showing what happens when ??
this could/should show what each wire does internally.
 
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2,052
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took another look at your diagram.
RED is aleays power, BLACK is ground
 
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took another look at your diagram.
RED is aleays power, BLACK is ground
One would normally think that. BUT! in this case, the black wire can be completely gone and the red and blue make the circuit.
That is using the flasher contacts X (red - power) and P (blue pilot -ground)

One must remember the problem. Which is the flasher WON"T STOP working when in the OFF position.
 
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Apr 15, 2013
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Been following this thread as I have same motor (only one).
It was running last year before putting it in the garage.
charged up battery and now it won't run?
I recall you had similar issue? Keyswitch?
hopefully it is something simple.
In the wiring diagram sent w/ motor it shows BLACK WIRE is v+ but it ran last year using RED as v+
 
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More fodder for the problem.

I tried yet again, just in case I miss something.

Desperate I connected the (red) wire that is supposed to go to the brake switch. I connected it to the flasher (P) first, then to (L). Nothing! Also tried it with the 4-way pulled out, Nothing.

It seems the ONLY time the flasher/light works is using the blue wire either in the (P) or (L) position.

So we are back to square one...the flasher/light WON"T SHUT OFF.
 
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Nottinghamshire England
So where do we find some details of the switch ?

Paul
 
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Dec 29, 2016
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Lanc's, England
Hi Ed
Which wires melted?
Take a photo of all cable connectors.
Normally by disconnect everything and building up the diagram again, cable by cable and testing function between each step, the fault will show itself.
 
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Usually motors won't run if any of their "Don't Run" conditions are being met (e.g. a brake sensor says that a brake is being applied, and overvolt sensor has tripped etc. etc.).
 
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Dec 29, 2016
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Lanc's, England
Let's get back to basic. How does the system work?
Traditional flasher relays work with heat.


So when you switch on your indicator the power used also heats up the heating element in diagram above when hot enough it brakes the circuit and then it will cool down and connect again and warm up again and so on.
So in your case, red cable from 12v DC/DC converters +, through fuse to X on flasher. The negative cable from your converter to chassis.
Blue cable connect to L on flasher, the black cable is only used to light up the indicator light so leave the cable disconnected for now.
The Yellow green orange and brown cable goes to each light so if you don't connect the lights the flasher
will not work, it's grounded through the lights, so if the flasher relay works without the lights you have a grounding problem. There should be a grounding through the outer case of the switch, but only to make the indicator light work. So the switch should work without being grounded through the case. So when the switch is in the off position you are disconnecting the lights and the flasher stops.
Led light takes much less power to work 1-5 watts compared to a standard light 10-35 watts.
so the switching rate may be wrong ( have you ever driven a car and when you indicate it flashes at the wrong speed, and when you check your flashers, one of the bulbs don't work)
You may need to compensate by adding a dummy load
https://www.speedwaymotors.com/Dummy-Load-Resistors-for-LED-Lights-12-Volt,47785.html
or change the relay for one made for led lights
https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_trksid=p2334524.m570.l1313&_nkw=flasher+relay+led+3pin&_sacat=0&LH_TitleDesc=0&_odkw=flasher+relay+led&_osacat=0
So do not connect the black cable to L or the red cable to the stoplight switch or the switch housing to ground and see if it works.
 
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Messages
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On more thought.
Measure with a volt meter the DC voltage between the positive pole on your 12v DC/DC converter
an chassis to check if it's 12v.
 
Joined
Sep 12, 2012
Messages
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Location
Apple Valley, California, USA
Let's get back to basic. How does the system work?
Traditional flasher relays work with heat.


So when you switch on your indicator the power used also heats up the heating element in diagram above when hot enough it brakes the circuit and then it will cool down and connect again and warm up again and so on. UNDERSTOOD

So in your case, red cable from 12v DC/DC converters +, through fuse to X on flasher. The negative cable from your converter to chassis.

CORRECT -HAVE DONE


Blue cable connect to L on flasher, the black cable is only used to light up the indicator light so leave the cable disconnected for now.

NOT SURE HERE. THE BLUE CABLE IS THE CABLE THAT CONNECTS TO THE INDICATOR LIGHT.

The Yellow green orange and brown cable goes to each light so if you don't connect the lights the flasher will not work,

ACTUALLY THE OPPOSITE IS TRUE. THE SWITCH AS PER INSTRUCTIONS IS DESIGNED TO BE GROUNDED THROUGH THE CASE . IN PARTICULAR, THROUGH THE SWITCH HANDLE ITSELF.

it's grounded through the lights, so if the flasher relay works without the lights you have a grounding problem.

I BELIEVE THIS TO BE TRUE, BUT THE PROBLEM IS HOW TO CORRECT.

There should be a grounding through the outer case of the switch, but only to make the indicator light work. So the switch should work without being grounded through the case. So when the switch is in the off position you are disconnecting the lights and the flasher stops.

THE SWITCH HANDLE ACTS AS THE GROUNDING POINT FOR LEFT-OFF-RIGHT POSITIONS. IF I ISOLATE THE CENTER POSITION WITH TAPE THEN THE SWITCH WILL NOT FUNCTION, WHEN IN THE OFF POSITION. THAT WOULD BE CORRECT - EXCEPT, I LOSE 4-WAY CONNECTIVITY.

Led light takes much less power to work 1-5 watts compared to a standard light 10-35 watts.

I'M USING LEDs
so the switching rate may be wrong ( have you ever driven a car and when you indicate it flashes at the wrong speed, and when you check your flashers, one of the bulbs don't work)

You may need to compensate by adding a dummy load.

I TALKED WITH SPEEDWAY MOTORS TECH SUPPORT "DANA" AND SHE WAS THRILLED ABOUT THE CHALLENGE, BUT ALAS EVEN SHE/THEY COULDN'T TELL ME WHY IT IS ACTING THE WAY IT IS. SHE EVEN SAID DON'T BUY THEIR SWITCH EITHER.

https://www.speedwaymotors.com/Dummy-Load-Resistors-for-LED-Lights-12-Volt,47785.html
or change the relay for one made for led lights.

I'M USING AN ELECTRONIC FLASHER UNIT, SUPPOSEDLY OK FOR USE WITH LEDS.

https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_trksid=p2334524.m570.l1313&_nkw=flasher+relay+led+3pin&_sacat=0&LH_TitleDesc=0&_odkw=flasher+relay+led&_osacat=0

So do not connect the black cable to L or the red cable to the stoplight switch or the switch housing to ground and see if it works.

YES I'VE DONE THAT A THOUSAND TIMES. I CAN CONNECT THE RED WIRE FROM THE FUSED TERMINAL BLOCK TO PIN 'X' AND THE BLUE WIRE FROM EITHER PIN 'P' OR 'L' AND THE FLASHER OPERATES. THAT IS NOT THE EXACT PROBLEM. WHEN ALL IS CONNECTED AS DESIGNED THERE IS (NO PROBLEM- WITH IT NOT WORKING) THE PROBLEM IS IT WON'T STOP WORKING WHEN IN THE OFF POSITION.
Ok there is a lot to answer here. Thanks for the input.

To save time I will answer within your quote.


Thanks to everyone that is trying to help. Trying to solve this from afar, I know is difficult. I need to find someone locally that is knowledgeable in such things that can come to the shop and see for themselves what and how this is causing such a problem.
 
Joined
Sep 12, 2012
Messages
3,051
Location
Apple Valley, California, USA
Overactive flasher problem solved – sorta!

A friend of mine figured out that the circuit wasn't getting enough resistance.
I hope I can explain this for all (well almost all) to understand.

He added an incandescent bulb (his mock-up demo) to each of the turn signal directions (one left, one right).
That caused the lights to still blink and the flasher to work, but stop while in the off position. (BLUE 'pilot wire disconnected)
The big change comes when the (blue pilot light wire) is removed. All lights still work as designed, left, right and hazard, (except in the center position) (No bulb connected).





I ordered two new LED rear lights and two resistors. I added one resistor to each ( turn) wire going to the two rear lights. All is now working as anticipated. Except the indicator lights on the switch no longer work, which is unimportant. Today I will splice the BLUE pilot wire to the (yellow and green) front signal wires. If I'm right that should make the indicator lights on the switch function only when they are in the (right or left mode)
 
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Sep 12, 2012
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3,051
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Apple Valley, California, USA
Update!

I connected the blue 'pilot light' wire to each (left and right) front wire (see diagram). The switch now works correctly.
The switch indicator lights up when it is supposed to - and not when it isn't supposed to!

 
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May 31, 2013
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South Benfleet, Essex, England, UK
Glad you got it resolved. :D
 
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