My life with Python trikes Mk1 , Mk1.5 , Mk2 ?

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It looks good.
So you couldn't rude without both hands loose.
I think it is just a practice thing , I could easily remove 1 hand and do stuff , I think I just tried to early sometimes I just though I was on a Python other times it was mildly scary !

How was the road, flat or under a small angle?
As it is under an angle and lower ad the fight, than you would turn left as you try to stay in balance. That is the disadvantage of a trike vs a 2 wheeler.
It is amazing how few roads/pavements and footpaths are level , If I held the bars it was amazing the angles the lower part moved through whilst the top just sailed along serenely.

I never go do far on my first test ride. I start in the street and make it a bit bigger, till I trust it. Then I go further.
Got bored with the street !
I used to start with small rides and work up to todays ride in easy steps , however Covid restrictions have stopped most of my riding so it was DO or DIE !

Now I ride to every whi want, even with the trike still in test phase and not finished.
Yes I am unsure [ apart from further riding ] what will happen to the trike next , it certainly isn't finished

Those crossings are for predestianse out here. Whe have them also and it is mainly on bissy streets with lots off traffic and 4 lanes.
In the UK we have to ride with the pedestrians (n) Some of the junctions I traversed today were 8 lanes wide with successive railinged chicanes each making it more difficult to get in the right position for the next one ?

Paul
 
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OK so it is a balance thing. It is harder than i expected.

I noticed that the roads aren't flat, when I started to ride my trike.
Bice pads that are separate from the roads are level, but the cycle lanes are often rounded.

I am now building one battery. I use tgat one, to make 2 mounts. Behind the seat on each side will come one.
Then I can ad the bag racks and the luggage carrier on top of that. Also fenders and the front a bit shorter. After that a powder coat and it is ready.

OK here they kick you off the predestion. You can get a ticket for it.
Also, you don't want to ride on it because the cycle lanes are much better to ride on.
 
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I don't understand your love of all things inherently unstable but I admire your persistence with them.
Look at the bigger picture ?

With a 24" track it will pass through almost all barriers , instead of passing through only a few barriers.
With a 20" seat height - better vision - out of the wet and dirt - bike and rider fair better.

How well would a trike ride/corner with 24" track and 20" seat height ?

.. and of course there is an almost Zen like quality riding along steering with your feet .....

Paul
 
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.. and of course there is an almost Zen like quality riding along steering with your feet .....
....and the feeling that the feet position is merely practice for the traction when in hospital later. ;)
 
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How well would a trike ride/corner with 24" track and 20" seat height ?
Those dimensions do pose design issues but you don't yet have them in that prototype yet it is unstable at it's current dimensions. You may learn it's instability and work around it and you may design some instability out. My point is that you choose to start with a known unstable design instead of a known stable one and I do not understand that choice whilst admiring the tenacity you show to make it work.
Danny's meets those sizes and is a design known to be no more unstable than a two wheeled recumbent. Any instability is largely a matter of learning to balance laid down. It can even be made to stand upright at rest with a transverse mounted disc at the point of tilt. Unlike using the brakes to keep upright a transverse disc wouldn't impede pedalling to set off.
 
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Those dimensions do pose design issues but you don't yet have them in that prototype yet it is unstable at it's current dimensions. You may learn it's instability and work around it and you may design some instability out. My point is that you choose to start with a known unstable design instead of a known stable one and I do not understand that choice whilst admiring the tenacity you show to make it work.
Hmmm well I am not sure what you mean by unstable ?
The Flevo bike/trike had a poor reputation because unlike the Python there was no stability from it's geometry to hold the front end up when the rider sat on it. So you had to use your legs to raise the whole of the front end to ride it , and keep it up to ride it safely.

Mine does not have that problem and so is not a Flevo.

I think there is a perception of tilting where the trike behaves as a stable trike until you want it to corner then it behaves like a 2 wheeler by tilting and then resumes it's trike like motion.
Obviously that is wrong and so unless using weight to make the tilt stable [ ie the pivot above the C of G ] all tilting trikes are to some degree unstable all the time ! [ possibly unstable is the wrong word here ? ] maybe more accurate to say all tilting trike's want to tilt ALL the time ?

Danny's meets those sizes and is a design known to be no more unstable than a two wheeled recumbent. Any instability is largely a matter of learning to balance laid down. It can even be made to stand upright at rest with a transverse mounted disc at the point of tilt. Unlike using the brakes to keep upright a transverse disc wouldn't impede pedalling to set off.
All most everything I have read about people building tilter's like Danny's mention a tilt lock , I assume because the people all come from the world of non-tilting trikes and feel they need a lock , why can't they just put there feet down ?
Either they can't make one work properly , can't ride off safely from locked to unlocked or can't deploy the lock in time to stop a fall over. universally the racers abandon tilt lock as unnecessary.



My trike is sat upright without a tilt lock engaged or brakes on ? when I sit on it and raise the front it stays upright [ Python stability ] and in fact I can get both my feet on the pedals and sit in a ' track stand ' mode without moving off OR failing over.
I think the problem with Danny's design is because the wheels tilt they cause the whole trike [ & it's weight to tilt ] on a Flevo a good 1/3 of the trike does not tilt and so provides a stable platform for the tilting elements to rest on ?

If you imagine on mine the un-tilting part is the road and the tilting part is me riding a 2 wheel connected by elastomers instead of tyres on top of the un-tilting part ? leaning to far could through me out of the seat however the trike wants to remain upright and so is inherently stable in that respect , Dan's just wants to lay flat and woe be tide you if you try and stop it.

Please continue with your though's and input , most welcome and the insight's are useful to try and understand what is happening and why it happens.

The prototype is evolving to become the 26" track and 20" seat height trike and may or may not work , we shall see.

Paul

ps having done 12 miles I am more inclined to try your idea of dual purpose handle bars , especially as the steering damper is working well with only 3.5cm of travel both for and aft and the limited steering lock [ compared to pedals touching the floor ] makes it a far easier trike to handle.
 
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Ok 14 days after the first flight and here we are again doing the same journey.

IMHO 14 days is to long however wanting to be ' safe ' for the week before my holiday and a week away and here we are.

Added a wing mirror for my safety and a Ventist seat pad so no pillow needed.

So it's not the trike from hell , however it is currently the trike of ' pay attention to what you are supposed to be doing ' and don't take your eye off the ball.

It was VERY strange getting back on it , my nervousness made it wobble like a jelly and it felt very unsettled.

Ride was uneventful mechanical wise and only a couple of ' oh **** ' moments:-

had to wave at a motorist for waiting for me to cross the road , one hand raised caused a mild wobble.

seems using the rear view mirror which is on the bars and involves looking down causes some change in trajectory [ probably because I lost the horizon from my vision ].

eventually another gated set of pedestrian lights caused a issue ?
They are again very narrow and are sloping up away from the entrance , I already have to approach slowly as I need to do a 90' right turn within the length of the trike AND climb the slope when in there , to little speed and not enough turn for the next left 90' turn meant I hit the railings , after much cursing I managed to extract it and cross safely. It does not help crossing it when you cannot see the traffic coming in from behind you [ if they have a filter on ] AND you cannot see the traffic turning from your side of the road as the view is obstructed. There is no easy way around these due to railings and much traffic.

I was very late at my Mothers , the journey took 33% longer than on the normal Python !
Still only got 4 gears , however in all honesty I would not ride it much faster down the hills at the moment being ' leg steering ' only , I had a couple of moments where I am sure I was pushing the bars and wondering why it was not steering INSTEAD of using my legs.

So ' oh **** ' moments seem to fall into 2 categories :-

a) Lack of turning or unwanted turn inputs

or

b) To much lean for a given situation causing a emergency stop and fast leg deployment to right the trike

a) can be improved by using cleated pedals , however that will hinder b)

So after much though I came to the conclusion there are more a) than b) events so cleated pedals have been added - wish me luck !

I am not sure if when I have started to lean it is difficult to then get it to turn ? I really need someone else to see if they can ride this and if so is it really as tricky as I think ?
There are a group of early teens [ couple BMX types ] go to the local green for some football kick around , I can see them from my garage so the plan is to quickly swap the pedals back and ride it down to dare them to try it ? Can't see them letting an old duffer turn up on something they don't think they can ride .....

A strange observation involves the handle bars and the trikes movement ?
If you have every sat on a train near to the junction of 2 carriages it is odd to watch the carriage you are NOT sat in bouncing up and down and from side to side when you appear to be not moving in those directions at all ?
The lower part of the trike is constantly doing that crossing sloping drives , dips and camber changes at pedestrian crossing points whist it seems the upper part is completely unaffected ?
So I must be holding the upper part vertical even though the lower part is laterally moving up and down following the contours , that would imply I am not using my arms to keep it vertical as they cannot move fast enough to do that and I cannot see some of the highs and hollows to anticipate my suitable response from my arms ?
This decoupling from lateral movements seems to be a sort of suspension and makes for a very comfortable ride , very noticeable from old Python mount , it also makes it much quieter [ a constance source of annoyance of the old one ]

So more rides needed 25 miles is not a learning experience !

All for now Paul
 
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Paul, I wanted to say that you need learning wheels, but it is a 3 wheeler already.
Making it stiffer, will that not help a bit?
 
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Paul, I wanted to say that you need learning wheels, but it is a 3 wheeler already.
The 2 rear wheels are the ' safe ' bit....

I am perched on 2 elastomers above that and so can wobble !

Making it stiffer, will that not help a bit?
The Finn's who have done some development on the Flevo trike are suggesting no elastomers at all on the tilt ?
No sure I agree with that [ for me ] I like the standing up unaided [ they usually fit a stand to their front ends ] and the resistance to tilting.
I could certainly fit more or stronger elastomers if I had some :whistle:

Paul
 
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So no on the top, but only on the steering.
Interesting. I think that with only on the steering, you make that the front will stay more straight and that you can balance easier.
 
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Be wary of asking youngsters to try it. I had one try my SWB two wheeler and they took to it like a duck to water. I felt quite deflated at my own floundering first efforts. Whilst such a scenario will tell you it's just you and not the machine that knowledge does tend to remind you of any age related enfeeblement versus the reflexes of youth.
 
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Be wary of asking youngsters to try it. I had one try my SWB two wheeler and they took to it like a duck to water. I felt quite deflated at my own floundering first efforts. Whilst such a scenario will tell you it's just you and not the machine that knowledge does tend to remind you of any age related enfeeblement versus the reflexes of youth.
Good point , there are a couple of adults I can ask on the estate , however to be honest no one with an inside leg measurement of less than 30" stands any chance and 32" would be better.

Ask DannyC what happens if your inside leg is sub 30" - not pleasant:whistle:

Paul
 
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Good point , there are a couple of adults I can ask on the estate , however to be honest no one with an inside leg measurement of less than 30" stands any chance and 32" would be better.

Ask DannyC what happens if your inside leg is sub 30" - not pleasant:whistle:

Paul
On behalf of all of us dwarves everywhere, I will be along to test ride it shortly.
 
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So another trip to mothers with more improvements ...



New Shimano spd pedals and new SA brake levers 3 finger levers so span the twist grip shifters better than 2 finger BMX style one's.

It was not to be . never got off the drive like this , found could not unclip left hand pedal , no time to investigate so swapped back to plastic toe clips pedals.

Mainly an uneventful trip [ still painfully slow ] however there were 2 ' unexpected tilt in the baggage area ' when trying to negotiate those traffic light chicanes again 😥(n)

However it goes to show no amount of cruising in big circles in a car park will equip you for what you find out on a ride.

So still having problems decoupling tilt and steering , part of the problem I think is that the legs can both steer AND introduce tilt and I am unsure which action is causing which reaction ?
It is obvious that I am having problems when free wheeling and trying to not tilt and maintain a steady line.
I discovered with the Python that when steering with the feet you are using the hips to steer , not the ankles or knees.
So looking down from above the hips swivel forwards and back causing the legs to lengthen , this explains why someone with shorter legs than mine cannot ride my Python [ sorry DannyC ] as when the pedals are to far away you tend to swivel your hips to reach them causing unwanted steering inputs.
Strangely it seems much easier to steer with precision when pedaling , free wheeling and steering seems to have no precision [ weave about to much ] and some times initiates tilt when not required.
A real challenge is a down hill [ on the Python 15-18 mph ] with camber off to the right towards the road however the path bends to the left , could not keep a steady course at all either darting off track or leaning when non was really needed.

I think I may stop riding this until I have bars that are able to steer , I feel very frightened when I am on a narrow path [ maybe less than 1ft [ 33 cm ] wider than the trike ] when there is 50 mph nose to tail traffic on the road alongside. The trike is not as bad as a MBB , but it is not plain sailing either.

Popshot suggested one solution - dual action bars ?



Not sure if they can easily be implemented as the front end is barely 7" wide however the bars containing the controls are 20" wide , so most unlike a tadpole.
I wonder if the control rods would loose most of their motion just trying to work over those angles ?
maybe pivot at the end of the bars however mount the control arm nearer under the seat and with some 1" spigots each side of the front that could be nearer 9" ?

More thinking needed Paul
 
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So another trip to mothers with more improvements ...



New Shimano spd pedals and new SA brake levers 3 finger levers so span the twist grip shifters better than 2 finger BMX style one's.

It was not to be . never got off the drive like this , found could not unclip left hand pedal , no time to investigate so swapped back to plastic toe clips pedals.

Mainly an uneventful trip [ still painfully slow ] however there were 2 ' unexpected tilt in the baggage area ' when trying to negotiate those traffic light chicanes again 😥(n)

However it goes to show no amount of cruising in big circles in a car park will equip you for what you find out on a ride.

So still having problems decoupling tilt and steering , part of the problem I think is that the legs can both steer AND introduce tilt and I am unsure which action is causing which reaction ?
It is obvious that I am having problems when free wheeling and trying to not tilt and maintain a steady line.
I discovered with the Python that when steering with the feet you are using the hips to steer , not the ankles or knees.
So looking down from above the hips swivel forwards and back causing the legs to lengthen , this explains why someone with shorter legs than mine cannot ride my Python [ sorry DannyC ] as when the pedals are to far away you tend to swivel your hips to reach them causing unwanted steering inputs.
Strangely it seems much easier to steer with precision when pedaling , free wheeling and steering seems to have no precision [ weave about to much ] and some times initiates tilt when not required.
A real challenge is a down hill [ on the Python 15-18 mph ] with camber off to the right towards the road however the path bends to the left , could not keep a steady course at all either darting off track or leaning when non was really needed.

I think I may stop riding this until I have bars that are able to steer , I feel very frightened when I am on a narrow path [ maybe less than 1ft [ 33 cm ] wider than the trike ] when there is 50 mph nose to tail traffic on the road alongside. The trike is not as bad as a MBB , but it is not plain sailing either.

Popshot suggested one solution - dual action bars ?



Not sure if they can easily be implemented as the front end is barely 7" wide however the bars containing the controls are 20" wide , so most unlike a tadpole.
I wonder if the control rods would loose most of their motion just trying to work over those angles ?
maybe pivot at the end of the bars however mount the control arm nearer under the seat and with some 1" spigots each side of the front that could be nearer 9" ?

More thinking needed Paul
It sounds terrifying Paul, I hope you can resolve it all without taking too many risks and get some steering input onto that front end.
 
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Well there's a thing !

A muggle [ non recumbent rider - non triker ] has ridden the tilter :D

He is probably about 20 years younger than me and a MTB rider , so good balance and quick reactions.

I showed him the bars were not used for steering , however he did not spot the brake levers under the grips.

I held it whilst he got into the pedals and he disappeared out of the cul-de-sac a few worrying minutes later he turned up with some speed shouting ' where are the brake levers ! ' before I could answer he dropped his feet and crashed into his front hedge tipping it almost over lucky he was standing by then. Not sure how he manged to ride down and back without using the brakes ?

I apologised however he just turned it around and left again , came back with a big grin saying it was a hoot and was mainly well behaved .... however he did say it had some odd habits which he could not quite put into words.

So it is not unridable or maybe either as bad as I make out , perhaps I just need more seat time [ I hope ].

Paul
 
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