Tilter mk3

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I noticed recently that without cut-off switches to kill the motor input it is a more difficult task to change up/down on the front-mech.
Like you the stick on hall sensor stuff isn't really viable so I have contrived a "cunning plan".
An IP67 waterproof momentary switch (N/O and non-latching) will be inserted into the button-cap of the RH handlebar stem.
When changing the front mech rings I will press the button with my right thumb while operating the friction-shifter on the left handlebar. As soon as the shifting operation is complete the thumb comes off and the motor will kick back in. Similarly, emergency stops can incorporate the same thumb-button press action. :D
 
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Web-site problems caused a double-post. Sorry folks.
 
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I see what you mean now. That would indeed get it closer. The wheel has to have room to tilt against a 45mm tube end meaning it needs to be 15mm or so at the closest. The axle nut could be moved to the outside and the head of the nut kept thin. That C bracket would be weighty though. The gains would be about 15 to 18mm less drop/raise but the narrower track would create another issue. On full tilt and turn the tyre already kisses the handlebar stays. I could move them inboard a little but we're starting to get fairly big on reworking and test runs so far have not shown any great issue in tilting or getting back upright though there's test riding still to be done. Probably an area to revisit if a problem manifests rather than an issue to deal with now.

Danny. I've ordered a pair of switched levers with the correct plugs and will modify one for double pull. Easier to attach two cables to a wired lever than wires to a twin pull.
 
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I'm not quite as dumb as I thought. I hadn't put the PAS on back to front. I'd mounted it to the wrong side of the BB. Apparently this one wanted to be at the side of the gears and I wanted it at the other side. Some drilling and remounting and all is well. What's not well is the handling. The battery is creating a pendulum effect. I hoped to not get this as the trike leans so was wishing for it to behave like a two wheeler. No such luck so the battery is going to have to go elsewhere. Under the front boom is now the candidate spot so a triangle bag and some rewiring will be needed. On a positive note the new brake lever works well and has the correct plug to cut the motor.

 
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What's not well is the handling. The battery is creating a pendulum effect. I hoped to not get this as the trike leans so was wishing for it to behave like a two wheeler.
How does that manifest itself ?

Does it overshoot the lean position you had hoped for , or take more force to hold the lean then cancel it ?

Paul
 
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It literally pendulums back and forth several times before you can stop it. Leaning down is fine but when you come back up you overshoot and then do so again for several goes. It doesn't do it every time but it's worse at speed. Slower corners seem to be ok. Moving the battery will, I hope correct that tendency. Under the boom will get that mass close to the tilt axis. It's a fair old mass that's not part of me.
 
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It literally pendulums back and forth several times before you can stop it. Leaning down is fine but when you come back up you overshoot and then do so again for several goes.
I assume this also manifest's itself as some steering input , so it weaves a little ?

It doesn't do it every time but it's worse at speed. Slower corners seem to be ok. Moving the battery will, I hope correct that tendency.
I would have though proportion wise it is a small part of the overall moving mass ?

Under the boom will get that mass close to the tilt axis. It's a fair old mass that's not part of me.
This line of though would imply that there is a fixed weight limit for the stability of the trike ?
That seems a little counter intuitive ?
However you are at the pointed end of the envelope and anything can and will happen.....

Don't forget the Hadron Collider looking for the Higgs Bosun was going to create a black hole and end the world ....

Paul
 
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Depending on the bar position it does weave. It's small compared to my mass but bike / trike mass always behaves differently to body mass. You instinctively control and allow for your own mass. Extra mass is outside that instinctive control.
 
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You are probably in a similar situation to me with the Python that had the whole front end , legs and me in the seat tilting as one unit ?

My arms were just not strong enough to have any control over the mass/pedal/steering forces.

I could not put both feet on the pedals and pedal away from a standstill the front end just tilted either left or right and effectively fell over taking me and the seat with it.

Hence the attempt at feet steering and arms just controlling balance , that did not end well either !

Good luck and be safe Paul
 
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Battery now moved and replaced with a Hailong cased version and I moved the controller to an under seat bag which is bolted to the seat and also holds a few tools. Space was tight as I never envisaged using that space. With the benefit of hindsight a bit more space would have been useful. This has improved the pendulum effect enormously. It's gone from dangerous to a bit wobbly. I hope I can fine tune the rest out by improving my techinque. I've noticed that hard pedalling wants to rock the trike which in turn wants to slalom it. It needs the bars forward in straight line use to remove steering from the swaying action which requires some constant pressure as the bars naturally want to rest at 45 degrees of camber. Again I suspect much is down to me needing to improve rather than a technical solution. One other thing I've noticed is the tyre scrub. Without Ackerman this is both heard and felt and is the reason for choosiing the fairly skinny front Marathons which have as low a rolling resistance as there is whilst having good puncture protection. I suspect some extra air in them will help but I always knew this was a design issue with little chance of resolving. I'm still having the tendency to over lean into a corner especially to tighten the line when in fact pulling on the bars is the better option. Once leaned the bars make a substantial difference to the turn. Again more learning needed but I am tightening the turning circle with practise. I also need a wider BB as the chain now clears the battery by 2mm on the big front ring. The smaller one is currently unusable until that change is made.

Enough of issues though as the smile is wide on watching other's faces as you slalom a bit just because you can. My current view is that this is capable of being in regular use rather than just a Sunday machine and I see no reason why anyone who wants to shouldn't build something similar. If anyone wants better pictures of any area or measurements I will happily oblige.





 
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Battery now moved and replaced with a Hailong cased version and I moved the controller to an under seat bag which is bolted to the seat and also holds a few tools. Space was tight as I never envisaged using that space. With the benefit of hindsight a bit more space would have been useful. This has improved the pendulum effect enormously. It's gone from dangerous to a bit wobbly. I hope I can fine tune the rest out by improving my techinque.
Could the battery not go under the boom ?
I've noticed that hard pedalling wants to rock the trike which in turn wants to slalom it.
It is noticable trike riders tend to swing their body from side to side when pedaling hard , maybe that is the effect causing the unwanted slaloming ?
Again I suspect much is down to me needing to improve rather than a technical solution.
True

One other thing I've noticed is the tyre scrub. Without Ackerman this is both heard and felt and is the reason for choosiing the fairly skinny front Marathons which have as low a rolling resistance as there is whilst having good puncture protection. I suspect some extra air in them will help but I always knew this was a design issue with little chance of resolving.
Noticeable as a noise on the 1st Python trike as you were sat inside the rear wheels and it had a 30" track , not sure I could feel it ?
Lessened now the track is down to 24" , or maybe a combination of more length putting the rear wheels further back and some wishful thinking ?


I'm still having the tendency to over lean into a corner especially to tighten the line when in fact pulling on the bars is the better option.
I suspect that leaning is a to ' stop it tipping over ' reaction ?
Again more learning needed but I am tightening the turning circle with practise.
I expect a practice/confidence thing , the rider tilting/leaning looks great on paper however in reality it is most unnerving when it happens unexpectedly.
However when you get it right it is a joy 😁
I also need a wider BB as the chain now clears the battery by 2mm on the big front ring. The smaller one is currently unusable until that change is made.
Battery under boom ? this would allow no return chain to be moved out of it's path easier than dealing with drive side ?
battery offset to non chain side ?


Enough of issues though as the smile is wide on watching other's faces as you slalom a bit just because you can. My current view is that this is capable of being in regular use rather than just a Sunday machine and I see no reason why anyone who wants to shouldn't build something similar. If anyone wants better pictures of any area or measurements I will happily oblige.
Don't put ideas into his head ....
You know who you are !

Paul
 
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I tried the battery under the boom with the triangle battery and just wasn't happy with it hanging there. It really needed to be more firmly fixed than a triangle type would allow. The Hailong is much better fixed being bolted down but I wouldn't want to hang the weight of the battery off it's mount. To undersling it I'd want to make a cradle similar to the one on my PRST so it sat on it's mount rather than hung off it. It's also much more vulnerable under the boom if I run into anything and it's a big ticket item to use as a crumple zone. The big advantage of it on top is the ease of removing it for charging. Above or below it would take the same central space so would still require a wider BB. I want to keep it central to avoid leaning the other way to counterbalance it but mainly it would upset my sense of aesthetics to have it offset.

I'm sure that this trike is a lot less forgiving of sloppy techniques than a Warrior or Streetfox type trike and the whole action and foibles thing are going to take some adaption from me. I'm equally sure that mastering those improvements will be well worth it as the smiles per mile are way in excess of anything-else I've built (so far). Anyone with ideas in their head should get them out of there and into steel.
 
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I'm sure that this trike is a lot less forgiving of sloppy techniques than a Warrior or Streetfox type trike and the whole action and foibles thing are going to take some adaption from me. I'm equally sure that mastering those improvements will be well worth it as the smiles per mile are way in excess of anything-else I've built (so far). Anyone with ideas in their head should get them out of there and into steel.
Sometimes these things are not as strange as we think ?

I had non trike/recumbent riders try two of my different tilting Pythons [ including the notorious Tilt#2 ] they rode off and did a few turns with no drama and I think though all recumbent trikes rode like that !

So that is your next challenge !

Paul
 
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I tried the battery under the boom with the triangle battery and just wasn't happy with it hanging there. It really needed to be more firmly fixed than a triangle type would allow. The Hailong is much better fixed being bolted down but I wouldn't want to hang the weight of the battery off it's mount. To undersling it I'd want to make a cradle similar to the one on my PRST so it sat on it's mount rather than hung off it. It's also much more vulnerable under the boom if I run into anything and it's a big ticket item to use as a crumple zone. The big advantage of it on top is the ease of removing it for charging. Above or below it would take the same central space so would still require a wider BB. I want to keep it central to avoid leaning the other way to counterbalance it but mainly it would upset my sense of aesthetics to have it offset.

I'm sure that this trike is a lot less forgiving of sloppy techniques than a Warrior or Streetfox type trike and the whole action and foibles thing are going to take some adaption from me. I'm equally sure that mastering those improvements will be well worth it as the smiles per mile are way in excess of anything-else I've built (so far). Anyone with ideas in their head should get them out of there and into steel.
I am quite impressed with the way the twin batteries are mounted on my tadpole (not my doing, I assure you).
The rack provides a battery mounting platform either side of the main keel and is formed like an elongated and bent "U" shape. The well of the "U" has a flat plate that sits on the spar that the seat fixes to and the two arms of the "U" have inward pointing 22mm tubes. These tubes sit in the "V" hollow of a piece of Angle iron that is welded to the underside of the keel withthe V pointing upwards.
HD cable clamps and quick release assemblies hold them in place. It is very solid and very secure, and yet with 3 QR operations can be removed and stored separately.
 
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Found a better picture of the rack itself.
 
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That's a nice big pair.
I wish. 2 old fashioned 10AH packs. But I prefer that package style to the new Ali-tin-box packs.
:D
 
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